Intro:

I'm a 35y/o male currently in AA. I attend meetings daily and am currently at the nine month mark. Unfortunately, I am attaining this abstinence through substituting with daily use marijuana (I'm predicting a relapse if my supply were ever to run out). When I go without grass for a few days my cravings flare up. I swore I would never attend AA, but things finally reached the breaking point where I felt I had no choice. I find major faults with the program, its horrendous relapse rate, dislike the all encompassing lifestyle, but otherwise have participated and done as directed full on. It has given me a life back in one sense, but I see constant relapsing and am being told by 'old timers' that a lifetime of cravings await me and that simply is the way it is.

Background:

I began losing control of my drinking in or around the age of 28. I distinctly remember two noteworthy instances whereby my drinking 'crossed invisible lines' as the Big Book puts it. As such I can remember the week I began allowing myself to drink before 5pm. A year or so later I can remember the week I began drinking in the morning. By 30 I had begun going through horrible detoxes at home (4 or 5 in total over seven months). It wasn't long before I lost my fiancee, home, business and was still convinced I wasn't an alcoholic. Life went on and I drank. Friends distanced themselves from me and word got around that I was a mess. Formal detoxes began to be a more regular occurrence. To date I have been through six. Trouble with the law began to occur as well mainly 'protective custody over-nights' and finally a DUI. All this time I was effectively unemployable and my main focus of each day was drinking.

All told I am a stage 5 alcoholic. It has ravaged my life. My drinking is disgusting i.e straight liquor, no glass.

Direction:

Fast forward the documentary 'One Little Pill' fell into my lap. 'The Cure for Alcoholism' soon followed and I decided immediately that this was surely the cure I had been looking for. So, I'm at a crossroad. From reading your posts on this board it seems like I will have a very rocky road ahead should I elect Naltrexone treatment. It doesn't seem as peachy or definitive as the literature would have you believe. Further, resuming drinking is very scary for me particularly given the condition prompted by periods of abstinence. When I initially began AA I had two relapses both at 60 days. Each time I picked up the bottle and drank non-stop for 5-6 days creating physical addiction and a subsequent week of detoxing each time.

When I return to drinking on Naltrexone am I going to be able to manage my consumption at all? Am I looking at 6-8mo of crippling abuse? (I'm not sure my girlfriend can handle it).

Can anyone relate to my level of drinking?

I need an online, non-prescription source for obtaining Naltrexone. I'm seeing my doctor Thursday, but it seems questionable if I can get a script. I've seen mention of 'River'. Can anyone elaborate?

I find it disappointing that members with success seem to disappear from the board. On one level I can understand it, but maybe it is the AA in me as I'm accustomed to one drunk helping another drunk. Are there any 'successes' now reading this?

Any comments are appreciated.

Hi Bardo and welcome.

Online sources include All Day Chemist (I have used,perfectly safe and reliable) and River Pharmacy. You should be able to google them.

Many people with your level of drinking have been helped by TSM. If you have time, browse this forum and you will see their stories.

I would say get your pills ASAP and get started. Everyone's journey is different, so no one can tell you what you are looking at, other than that you WILL get better and this can be a long term fix. You are in the right place.

Right now you will find a TON of support on this forum, including people who have been "cured" (Personally I don't like that term), like UK Blonde who are regularly here to help others.

Big hugs to you for all you have gone through, glad you are here. xoxo Newlife

Bardo, welcome!

I get my pills from All Day Chemist and they have been very reliable and I usually get them within ten to fourteen days.

Best of luck. Keep us posted on how you are doing if you decide TSM is for you. I am fourteen weeks in and seeing some good results, with the support of the wonderful people on this forum.

Keep us posted on what you decide and how you are doing.

Bardo,

First of all congratulations on 9 months sober that's quite a feat and nothing I was ever able to accomplish. I've managed 6-8 week dry spells over my decades of drinking but that was about it. I know what your thoughts are tight now and I think most of us have been there.

Currently the philosophy in TSM is that if you are abstinent then you should remain that way. I have to be honest and say that the tone of your post is that you sound like you are on the verge of relapse and trust me my friend I know what that is like. But if you can get over it then by all means do.

So that brings us to the difficult point. If we do recommend that you get your prescription then does that mean that is the final straw and the excuse you need to get back to drinking? TSM will only work if you drink. That is the paradox here and why it is at odds with AA and the medical community at large. If you are abstinent then you should stay that way. The other part of the paradox is that we know what it is like to suffer through abstinence and be on that torturous verge of relapse. It is cruel to let some one suffer this way but it is also cruel to give you an excuse to drink.

If there is such a thing as a TSM practitioner my guess from reading and understanding the literature is that they would advise you to remain abstinent and if that fails then to try TSM. This is neither an offering of an excuse to let you start drinking again nor is it a punishment to remain abstinent. It's cruel by nature but it is what it is for now.

I'm sorry for what you are going through and I think we all know here what it is like. I don't want to help guide you back into drinking by saying TSM really does work but it does. Just keep trying to put up the good fight because going back to drinking is never a good choice to make but if you do there is hope.

To answer your specific questions well, it's different for every one. I don't know of any studies with participants who have been abstinent for extended periods of time who jump right into TSM. If you do then it would be a very interesting experience to follow and learn from. I hope you don't. I don't encourage this at all but I do hope that you will continue to post here. If you do start right away then what you will find is that the Naltrexone will block the euphoric response to your first drink and that the desire to chase that drink will be reduced.

Right now you are experiencing what is known as the Alcohol Deprivation Syndrome (ADS). You can read all about that on line. I almost feel like you would first need to feed that into sedation before starting on TSM but I don't claim to have any clinical knowledge and as such don't heed my advice I'm just very curious about it. Biologically speaking the difference between you who is abstinent for 9 months and some one who has been practicing TSM for 9 months is that you sort of went into a frozen state where everything was left off as it was and even worse as ADS builds and builds. The TSM participant has gone through the physical and psychological process of extinction where they reinforce good behaviors while eliminating the bad through a process which actually physically alters the brain. The TSM person has weakened and destroyed the biological neural network, the physical pathways of cellular membranes that make the connections to the synapse and neurons that make up the opiodergic system in the brain that is activated by alcohol.

You, being in this frozen state, still have those biologic superhighways in your brain, though they probably are weakened somewhat from not being used, that are still active and ready to go. Things such as triggers, the sight or smell of alcohol and so on, will send signals down these highways which cause a reflexive response in your brain for alcohol.

That's TSM in a nut shell. I would suggest you read Dr. Eskapa's book as it goes into detail of how it works and has some advice for some one in your situation.

BTW on a side note my brother who is a recovering alcoholic abstinent through AA now on ten years said that smoking pot triggered his drinking so you may want to be careful with that and even think about phasing that out. If it works then that is great. I guess I'd be a bit less concerned if you said you just like smoking pot rather then you smoke pot to help you avoid drinking. That's a red flag.

Good luck!

Bardo,

First of all congratulations on 9 months sober that's quite a feat and nothing I was ever able to accomplish. I've managed 6-8 week dry spells over my decades of drinking but that was about it. I know what your thoughts are tight now and I think most of us have been there.

Currently the philosophy in TSM is that if you are abstinent then you should remain that way. I have to be honest and say that the tone of your post is that you sound like you are on the verge of relapse and trust me my friend I know what that is like. But if you can get over it then by all means do.

So that brings us to the difficult point. If we do recommend that you get your prescription then does that mean that is the final straw and the excuse you need to get back to drinking? TSM will only work if you drink. That is the paradox here and why it is at odds with AA and the medical community at large. If you are abstinent then you should stay that way. The other part of the paradox is that we know what it is like to suffer through abstinence and be on that torturous verge of relapse. It is cruel to let some one suffer this way but it is also cruel to give you an excuse to drink.

If there is such a thing as a TSM practitioner my guess from reading and understanding the literature is that they would advise you to remain abstinent and if that fails then to try TSM. This is neither an offering of an excuse to let you start drinking again nor is it a punishment to remain abstinent. It's cruel by nature but it is what it is for now.

I'm sorry for what you are going through and I think we all know here what it is like. I don't want to help guide you back into drinking by saying TSM really does work but it does. Just keep trying to put up the good fight because going back to drinking is never a good choice to make but if you do there is hope.

To answer your specific questions well, it's different for every one. I don't know of any studies with participants who have been abstinent for extended periods of time who jump right into TSM. If you do then it would be a very interesting experience to follow and learn from. I hope you don't. I don't encourage this at all but I do hope that you will continue to post here. If you do start right away then what you will find is that the Naltrexone will block the euphoric response to your first drink and that the desire to chase that drink will be reduced.

Right now you are experiencing what is known as the Alcohol Deprivation Syndrome (ADS). You can read all about that on line. I almost feel like you would first need to feed that into sedation before starting on TSM but I don't claim to have any clinical knowledge and as such don't heed my advice I'm just very curious about it. Biologically speaking the difference between you who is abstinent for 9 months and some one who has been practicing TSM for 9 months is that you sort of went into a frozen state where everything was left off as it was and even worse as ADS builds and builds. The TSM participant has gone through the physical and psychological process of extinction where they reinforce good behaviors while eliminating the bad through a process which actually physically alters the brain. The TSM person has weakened and destroyed the biological neural network, the physical pathways of cellular membranes that make the connections to the synapse and neurons that make up the opiodergic system in the brain that is activated by alcohol.

You, being in this frozen state, still have those biologic superhighways in your brain, though they probably are weakened somewhat from not being used, that are still active and ready to go. Things such as triggers, the sight or smell of alcohol and so on, will send signals down these highways which cause a reflexive response in your brain for alcohol.

That's TSM in a nut shell. I would suggest you read Dr. Eskapa's book as it goes into detail of how it works and has some advice for some one in your situation.

BTW on a side note my brother who is a recovering alcoholic abstinent through AA now on ten years said that smoking pot triggered his drinking so you may want to be careful with that and even think about phasing that out. If it works then that is great. I guess I'd be a bit less concerned if you said you just like smoking pot rather then you smoke pot to help you avoid drinking. That's a red flag.

Good luck!

Bardo,

You certainly have a tough choice to make. 9 months of not drinking has got to be a wonderful feeling. I made it a little over a year once a long time ago. Having started drinking heavily as a teenager and having my share of troubles with the law, family, friends I can relate to how much damage AL has caused in your life. I was fortunate, in some ways, that I have always been a highly functioning drunk. So, I have managed to hold onto my job, family, and house and from the outside it looks like we have the perfect family. But all that aside - I am a drunk and of course, looks are deceiving and my family, career and friends have all suffered due to my being a drunk. Not to mention my body.

I understand the dilemma you are in. And I think the answer would be "hell ya, get your pills and get started" if you were currently drinking. But you are not. Since you are not, the answer is not as easy. Even though there is an 80% chance of it working for you if you follow the program it still has its risks. So my opinion is that you should really think twice before having that first drink with or without a pill. BUT if you know in your heart that you are going to have that drink sooner or later and you are just waiting for the right trigger or time to do it, then get yourself a supply of NAL. I always knew when I was in AA that I would drink again. It was just a matter of time. Of course, once you have them you are more than likely going to try it.

It is not a magic cure and if you take the pill you have to drink in order for it to work. How quick it works for you and how tough the struggle will be is anyone's guess but the science is on your side if you take it properly - an hour before drinking. Not without some misery and ups and downs for sure. But it will work. I know it is working for me - but I still have nights when I drink way to much and I have even blacked out on NAL when I went over the top with my drinking. But for the first time in my adult life I believe there will come a day that I can not only say no to a drink - but that I will be able to have just one and then stop.

Success here is measured in smaller increments and over a longer period than with AA. With AA it is one day at a time of no drinking what so ever. If you drink - you are not successful. Easy to understand but hard to do for drunks like us. TSM is different. You are not expected to be able to go cold turkey. Here success is measured by asking if you took the pill one hour before you drank. If yes, then you were successful on that day. IF you took the pill and drank more than you should of - or wanted to - you have not failed - as long as you have taken the pill. Yes we do keep track of how much we drank and how many days we have not - but that is only to reinforce the progress that is made over time. After taking the pill your success is really up to the science described in the book - and not based on a greater being or will power. Makes it a little easier on the mind for drunks like us who have felt that miserable feeling of waking up and thinking we have failed because we drank the night before. And the best part of the TSM vs the AA is it works on the majority of people who use it. And that is partly the reason why the majority of cured people move on from this forum. Thankfully there are those who stick around and give us the words of encouragement.

Bardo - best of luck and if you decide to do the TSM please keep us posted.

First off, the touted 80 % success rate of TSM 80 % is wildly inaccurate. I see a 10 % or so success rate with following this forum for over a year and a half.

I chose TSM because I couldn't accept the powerlessness and loss of self-esteem of AA. It was a good choice. I am and remain in control.

"Cured" implies freedom from an illness or malady. I doubt anyone needing TSM or AA will ever be cured of anything. I know you can regain your life though by using TSM to regain control of a destructive alcoholic behavior pattern.

It can and will work for someone willing to think it through and use Naltrexone correctly to extinguish mindless ingrained drinking.

Being aware of your drinking, and making behavioral and habit changes to STOP mindless drinking will get you to a place where drinking to excess (or daily) is not an appealing or worthwhile option anymore.

It is necessary to drink with Naltrexone to help get there, but ultimately the solution is to put the bottle down !! Your mind cannot accept or acclimate to a life of less or no drinking while actively drinking to excess.

You become uneasy and crave alcohol, as inebriation is your normal state. You can stop that with highly effective strategies such as mindfulness, urge surfing, habit change, spacing drinks, etc. None require willpower or deprivation, they require mature rational coherent thought.

Be aware and "mindful" of what you're doing to yourself. There is no reason whatsoever that an AF day should be a struggle. 1 day ? Stanton Peele and Alan Carr wrote some excellent books that will help you see how toxic and stupid excess alcohol is.

Now your new normal can be not being impaired. Inebriation is unpleasant and undesired, and being clear headed an in control is it's own reward. Lot less to worry about !

The craving and mindless desire to drink will wilt away, indifference is the result. In other words, you will not WANT to drink because there is NO possible benefit to it !! You cannot see that by white knuckle abstaining or continuing to drink.

This forum is replete with advice to "drink as always" and you'll get better. I strongly disagree as I don't see that happening with any regularity here. If you drink beyond .08 or so on Naltrexone, you are drunk, and rational thought is gone. Further drinking is likely, and renders the extinction effect of NAL moot. I know, because I did it for 6 months.

My path was to drink less, use the Naltrexone (which made the "fun" of drinking vanish) and steer myself towards minimal drinking (once a week maybe). Over time, the thought of getting drunk and stupid, and losing my self-esteem has become repugnant. It will never happen. It can and does happen that you will not "want" or "crave" alcohol.

Change your behavior, and your whole life will change.

Guapo: where does the 10% figure come from? Did you actually count something or is it more like intuitive from what you have read? Which is fine I tend to operate on intuiton too but I am just curious. Newlife

10%!! What are you smokin?
I might agree that 80% is optimistic but from my months of following this forum, I would say that nearly all of the participants posting here have gained some substantial degree of control over their drinking. Some much more than others. TSM does not necessarily promise abstinence. We may still be battling drinking habits and lifestyles but the feeling of total mindless helplessness is gone for most of us.
I do, however, agree with mindfully reducing AL intake while extinguishing. As an early responder and a daily drinker, I set limits early on, in fact as soon as I found I could. I feel had I continued to drink heavily even on Nal I would not have been successful.
Steve.

Bardo,

Since you are thinking about this without the help of a doctor, please go to the C-3 or the options saves lives forum and post a request for medical advise. They can email Dr. Eskapa about to your situation and maybe they can point you in the right direction.

I think you are at a cross road and I would hate for you to be influenced one way or the other without the insight of a medical professional.

9 months without drinking is something to be proud of!

Jaba