I have no problem with you guys here. At all. I actually have looked into it, and interestingly, I agree with the science, with the only caveat that it is not a cure. And I actually did have a couple questions. Whats the difference from being completely abstinent and taking Naltrexone, which takes away the pleasurable effects of drinking, negating any reason to want to drink anyway? Is it to just have the booze around, or to go out an have a couple drinks? If you get no pleasure from it after taking the naltrexone, why bother going out and having a couple drinks?

Welcome Dreadnaught (are you a guitar player by chance?). I don't really care what term is used for the state TSM has brought me to. All I know is that my life is now wonderful and getting better thanks to this method. You can call it "cured", "de-addicted", or "totally bamboozled" for all I care.

If someone is drowning you don't stand there and argue whether to throw him a "life ring" a "life sling" or a "lifesaver", you just throw him the damn line!

BTW, I think healthy debate is GREAT! Glad you're here.

Fire

I misread what you said. I didnt realize they were taken off.

I still get plenty of pleasure from having a drink. I just don't get that insane, gotta have more type of "pleasure". Read the threads, there are a lot of misconceptions about TSM that can be dispensed with.

Thanks Firebird, thats a good way to put it. No I dont play guitar. I did have questions I posted a couple posts before this though, if you want to take a look.

I think we are splitting hairs here about the definition of being "cured" of alcoholism. If you are drinking at safe levels and no longer have cravings, the addiction is gone. I couldn't care less about quibbling over whether this meets your definition of "cure." It is what it is, the addiction is gone and that's all anyone cares about.

Thanks for your link. I made it one paragraph before uncovering a quote that completely refutes your point that alcoholism is not learned.

Why do people drink alcohol?

One reason people drink is that alcohol is reinforcing. People experience effects from drinking alcohol that can cause them to drink again to repeat the experience. Through its effects, alcohol can be a positive reinforcer, producing positive sensations in the brain, or a negative reinforcer, alleviating negative sensations such as anxiety (1).

"People experience effects from drinking alcohol that can cause them to drink again to repeat the experience. Through its effects, alcohol can be a positive reinforcer..." This is called "learning" my friend. Your own quote describes drinking alcohol as a learned behavior. Your own link proves my point. I have read a lot about alcoholism and have never once read it is strictly genetic. Do you have a credible link to support this contention?

Regarding your latest post: your assumption is incorrect, naltrexone does not take away the pleasurable effects of alcohol. As I said yesterday, you still get a buzz drinking on naltrexone. Naltrexone prevents the endorphin rush produced from alcohol but it basically happens at a subconscious level. Drinking while on naltrexone is still subjectively pleasurable, otherwise, most people would stop taking the pill. Not one person here (or in the studies that I'm aware of) has ever stopped taking the pill because drinking was no longer pleasurable. The buzz is still there, although often altered insignificantly in ways that vary from person to person.

Any behavior can be learned, including drinking alcohol. It is not the cause nor the basis of alcoholism. If it were every single person would be a drunk. You are missing the point. You said people become alcoholics because its a learned behavior and that is not the case. just because you can learn to drink alcohol doesnt mean you are going to turn into an alcoholic.

As for the buzz, do you feel as euphoric as you did when you drank to excess? Is it the same level of euphoria? Im really interested in this now as I thought it took away the pleasurableness.

Absolutely correct. There are those of us who are genetically predisposed to alcoholism. However, we were not alcoholics after our first drink. Nor our second or third. It was only after a time of conditioning did our drinking go out of control. We learned it. "Normal" people who are not disposed to alcoholism, do not get out of control over the long term. They do not learn it. So it is a learned behavior, but only if we are susceptible to it, not if we are not.

Bob

The whole theory behind TSM is that alcoholism is a learned behavior. The first several chapters explain how alcoholism is, in fact, learned. If you are really interested in this, get the book, it explains it far better than I have so far. But the reason you become un-addicted through TSM is that you continue to drink, but the positive reinforcement (endorphins) are blocked at a subconscious level, and ultimately you no longer associate drinking with a positive experience. This, somewhat ironically, in spite of the fact you still get a buzz on naltrexone. You should read the book, or check the passages included on this board as it lays it out far better and more convincingly than I have here.

The buzz is different on naltrexone and it's hard to explain. You should search this site, it's been discussed at length on other threads. For me, I get relaxed, I get a buzz, but I am more focused and more in control. The euphoria factor is reduced, but not so much that it bothers me. For example, I like to dance, but only if I'm buzzed on alcohol. And I have no problem dancing and having fun while drinking on naltrexone.

I apologize for my prior posts where I agreed that you were here to just stir up trouble. I see now that you have a real interest, so I'll do my best to answer your questions.

That is absolutely correct they way you just described it.