Last night is probably the closest to pre TSM I have had. I know Im only a week in.

Started the night at the concert. Sat on the lawn with some friends and my wife. We brought in some wine for my wife and beer for me.

Started out good pacing myself during the concert. But I started to think about how much beer was left and would there be enough to last til the end of the concert.

We had a blast all the same. Was great to hear some live music.

After the concert, it was a bit early, and I really didnt feel like heading home yet. So I ask my wife if we can just stop for one beer, and at the time, I really didnt feel like having one....but I did want one. Odd feeling.

So we stop at a small club by our house. Not many people there, and many alternative lifestyle folks in there, (I dont mind this at all). We end up talking to the owners of the establishment and others.

My wife wanted to dance so she danced a good hour or so. During this time I cant remember how many beers I had. It was the 3.2% AL beer, which is half of the normal amount.

Anyway, after about 3 hours of sleep, I woke up to toss and turn seemingly only to string together 20 mins of sleep at a time. Very restless.

Eventually I dragged myself out of bed. I have that panicy feeling like I did somthing wrong. I just cant figure out what though. A bit shakey too. Also very very tired. Today is the first time I have had that panicy feeling since pre TSM.

I really hope this isnt the Honeymoon Period that others have referred to.. Because while I notice definite differences in my drinking patterns, I cant say that its all good or that much better than before. Some things are better, and some things are worse. And I certainly havent glimpsed much of what is supposed to come. I am drinking with more frequency though. Like every other night. Which is not good for me, this could be where my panic is coming from.

Feeling a bit down today....Ill try to be more cheerful as the day rolls on.

I can totally relate to your experience. This is what we mean by "roller coaster ride."

Judging by your lifestyle (business owner/kids/Chicago fan) I'm guessing you are in your 40s. If so, that means you probably have been drinking heavily for at least 20 years. Pharmacological extinction doesn't occur in days or weeks -- it takes MONTHS. Three to four minimum for drinkers who "only" had about 35 per week pre-TSM. The longer you drink and the more you drink, the longer extinction will take to occur. You didn't get addicted in a week and you won't get un-addicted in a week. SO, patience plus the formula is all you have to have for TSM to work. The good news is that naltrexone is clearly impacting you and this bodes extremely well for your future.

I had EXTREME sleep disturbance for a few weeks when starting TSM. People speculated that it was my mind "fighting the beast" with naltrexone, especially because I was having regular nightmares of being killed or killing someone/some thing else. The sleep disturbance went away for me after a few weeks -- others reported it took longer but we speculate that it's just your body getting used to the nal.

I know EXACTLY what you mean about that panicky feeling and feeling of doing something wrong when you didn't do something wrong. These feelings started for me just in the past few years and were a few more of the reasons I finally decided to quit this addiction. You may want to experiment with how many beers you can have and not feel panicky and shoot for that as your max each session. This is my first week shooting for no hangovers/panicky feelings and I view it as taking this to the next level of my progression in the program.

Hey Nick, thanks for the reply.

In reviewing my previous posts, it seems Im really caught up in the Hangover portion of my drinking.

From what Im getting right now is... Im noticing the affects of one or two higher al content beers more so on Nal. I simply can not drink as much as I used to without feeling sick. So whats been happening is, I am a lightweight trying to drink like a heavyweight. If this continues, ill go out on a limb and say that, that in itself will probably be part of the extinction process to in regards to the amount that I "think" I can drink. Drinking til Im "done" will occur much sooner on a given session, if I try to keep going Ill just puke. However, its a bummer in the fact that these hangovers are a bit rougher than before.

In regards to hangovers, Im wondering if Im still getting the side affects of the Nal in conjunction with a hangover...because the amounts that Im drinking lately, pre TSM I wouldnt have much of a hangover at all.

I havent really seemed to be able to apply any type of logic in regard to moderation yet...even though I told myself I would try. Ive noticed that the 3.2% beer sneeks up on you. So maybe ill try to stick with full strength beer, I seem to go at a slower pace with that.

So far since I got my Nal, Ive seem to be drinking every other day...which could have brought on that panic feeling yesterday. I wanted to get through any side affects as quick as possible, and I was giving myself permission to drink. Im supposed to drink to get to the cure! Wow! Letting a kid loose in a candy store, eventually he will get sick.

Just incase anyone can relate in the future..... I started my drinking in my teens, like alot of people, got my post graduate in drinking around 26. I then went on an 11 or 12 year sober binge. Cant say that AA was responsible for that, seeing as how I only went to some meetings in the beginning. Its like going to listen to country music when I like rock and roll...just not my scene. And I dont believe I am "Powerless"...I believe there is always a way to do somthing if you look and try hard enough. Hence TSM.

I stayed sober up until about ummmm almost 2 years ago maybe? Since that time I have been off an on pattern of drinking. My normal pattern being not much drinking during the week if at all and hammering it hard on the weekend. We all know the antics with binging. And its normally the shame guilt spiral that keeps you sober until the next round. During this time, I managed to rip the arms off my chair with a 3 month white knuckling experience and the memory of a very bad Vegas trip. That movie "The Hangover"? has nothing on me lol.

Had a great sleep last night, slept in actually. Today I feel great, which is actually a big trigger for me. But...I have obligations and will look forward to attending a nice wedding on Saturday.

Anyway some things will never change....its hard to beat live music and some beer!!

My chin is up, the sun is shining and Im looking forward to getting better.

Hi hapful,

Don't know if I ever had a chance to welcome you, so I wanted to do so now. Boy - those of you who've managed YEARS of sobriety? I have such admiration for you. The only times I made it past a week were during my two pregnancies. My first drink was at 11, and 35 years later - I've got a real mess to clean up! I'm thinking this might be why my progress has been so slow. But hey - progress is progress! Glad you joined us, and best of luck to you.

Hey thanks Kris!

Those years of sobriety too werent that great. Always had that monkey on the back.

And when I finally did pick up that beer again, it was as if nothing had ever changed. Plus, during that time, I became somewhat of a recluse, which ultimately lead me back to drinking....that social aspect.

I think I brought up my drinking history in regards to Nick's speculation on how long I have actually been drinking for....Nick you were almost spot on if.... I did not have that bout of sobriety. And...Im just a tad bit younger. However... when I go out and drink, I drink like I am 27! Maybe in the back of my mind Im trying to make up for lost time??? lol

So in essence, if we are to assume that habits are formed over time, and habits get stronger with time...maybe mine isnt that deep rooted seeing as how Ive really been drinking for say 9 years? Going down that path, maybe my habit can be broken quicker??? Ha! Wishful thinking at best me thinks.

So many great people here. Thanks for the welcome!

Actually, if you have only been boozing hard for nine years there is every reason to think extinction will happen more rapidly than if you were a twenty-years plus boozer.

Think of it like Pavlov's dog. The bell is paired with food, say 40 times, before the dog salivates when hearing the bell only. The dog has been conditioned to salivate at the ring of the bell. Now, if you stop giving the dog food while continuing to ring the bell, after a while the bell alone will no longer make the dog salivate -- the bell alone that used to produce saliva -- has been extinguished. Now, let's assume the bell was paired with the food not 40 times, but 400 times, i.e., the conditioned response is much, much stronger because it is that much more ingrained in the dog's brain with 400 food/bell pairings as opposed to only 40. Now when you stop giving the dog food but continue to ring the bell, eventually the dog will no longer salivate to the bell only, but it will take WAY longer for the dog to stop salivating than if the dog had only had 40 bell pairings with the food, as opposed to 400. (I hope this makes sense -- I'm struggling to find the simplest words.)

I believe this same principle applies to drinking as well: the longer you have been drinking, the longer you have all of the positive associations between drinking and pleasure, i.e., the stronger your conditioned response. Conversely, the shorter time you have been drinking, the weaker the conditioned response, and the lesser time it will take to extinguish the association between drinking and pleasure, i.e., extinction.

You are still too early in the treatment to expect any type of a trend or results. The honeymoon period is just a sort of bi-product of starting TSM. Individual experiences with the honeymoon period vary quite alot.

Keep your chin up and try to stay as positive. The feeling of being down the day after drinking too much will pass.

Q

Thanks for replying Q....btw do you remember when you and the Q Continuum put the human race on trial and Capt Picard would ultimately be responsible for the fate of humanity? Everything came out ok and I think that Picard learned alot from the experience.

I know we should not over think TSM. And everyone has a different experience going through it, like sitting in a different seat, your point of view is different, but ultimately we will all arrive at the same place. Cured.

But in regards to Conditioned Responses...ie Povlov's dog.. I have been trying to find information regarding the length or strength of conditioning in relation to extintion of that that conditioning. I want to see if the theory, as Nick posted above, that a conditioned response is easier or harder to extinguish dependant upon the amount of time, or times that conditioned response has been reinforced. It does make sense to me that the less reinforcement on conditioning the easier it is to extinguish....(I think I just confused myself)

So in other words, does it really take longer for a long term heavy drinker of say 30 years + to become cured on TSM vs a person who only drank for a year? Guess we will all find out in time. Hopefully I can prove the theory.

I found this bit about Extinction Burst very interesting: (cut and paste from wikipedia)
" Extinction burst
While extinction, when implemented consistently over time, results in the eventual decrease of the undesired behavior, in the near-term the subject might exhibit what is called an extinction burst. An extinction burst will often occur when the extinction procedure has just begun. This consists of a sudden and temporary increase in the response's frequency, followed by the eventual decline and extinction of the behavior targeted for elimination.

Take, as an example, a pigeon that has been reinforced to peck an electronic button. During its training history, every time the pigeon pecked the button, it will have received a small amount of bird seed as a reinforcer. So, whenever the bird is hungry, it will peck the button to receive food. However, if the button were to be turned off, the hungry pigeon will first try pecking the button just as it has in the past. When no food is forthcoming, the bird will likely try again... and again, and again. After a period of frantic activity, in which their pecking behavior yields no result, the pigeon's pecking will decrease in frequency.

The evolutionary advantage of this extinction burst is clear. In a natural environment, an animal that persists in a learned behavior, despite not resulting in immediate reinforcement, might still have a chance of producing reinforcing consequences if they try again. This animal would be at an advantage over another animal that gives up too easily."

Ive read alot of posts where people seem to get a sudden increase in thier drinking then all of sudden bam the drop off....maybe the above explains that phenomenon? (or anomoly if we were watching Star Trek TNG)

(Im not trying to over think this, I just find it very interesting....and I like to go off on tangents sometimes)

No matter...one thing we do know is Nal + Drink = Cure right?

Very interesting! Never researched this "burst" phenomenon but not only does it make sense, but it would totally explain why many of us, after the honeymoon, begin drinking at HIGHER THAN PRE-TSM LEVELS. This would explain it! Great research job and great post!

I majored in psychology as an undergrad and studied behaviorism somewhat, which includes conditioning and extinction. I am highly confident that what I said about the level of conditioning is true. It would also completely coincide with our experiences on this board: the people who have been drinking longer are taking longer to be affected by TSM than the people who haven't been drinking as long. And our new friend AJ thinks he's experiencing extinction very quickly and he has been drinking only a few years -- unlike most of us here, who have spent years and years drinking too much. Bottom line: our anecdotal experiences here lead to the clear conclusion that progress on TSM is directly related to how long and how much you've been drinking: the longer/more consumption, the longer it will take for TSM to work and vice versa.

Hi Nick, thanks for replying. (Q let me know when your get sick of the Star Trek references, I think there was only 5 or 6 episodes where you appeared...so I should be out of them soon enough.)

Yep that "Extinction Burst" upon reading, really struck me, because it fit in so well with what I was reading on the boards. And it makes total sense. From what Ive read, it seems as if its a last gasp from the "beast" part of the brain. (ofcourse I have yet to get there)

To me science is discovery, not invention. Like Math, you dont make up those formulas, you Discover them. I think that Calculus was claimed to have been discovered by 2 people at the same time? Newton discovered gravity. It was always there, but no one seemed to notice. Many wonders of the Universe just sitting there waiting to be discovered. Just as Dr. Sinclair made his discovery, we are now benefitting from it. The science is behind it. But...Im sure there is much more to be discovered here beyond what has already been uncovered. (Dang am I a poet or what?) Which is what will make this forum invaluable.

We have science behind us...and for the Higher Power people, hey, God left many things for us to Discover! TSM is one of them. (Sorry not getting on the soap box)

Anyway....I have a wedding to go to on Saturday, and I was just reading over Nick's last wedding adventures...(wow Nick you had a ton of triggers that evening, and really seems you had a lot of fun too). Im not trying to make light of it in anyway, but it seems that you and I have similar drinking patterns, so I will definitely try to be more "aware" of any triggers that may occur on my evening.

Im thinking of attempting some moderation tonight. My hesitation is that I will not be able to, and while I am definitely drinking less that I normally do on any given occasion, the hangover has been horrible. I dont want to be "recovering" at tomorrow's event.

My "beast" is telling me I want to drink tonight though. Its Friday. Ill probably give in....but armed with my Nal.

Safe weekend to all, and Happy Naling.