I must confess to a bit of midnight posting here although I feel relatively sober .
I have all the same hit the booze harder than for a good while , the equivalent of a bottle and a half these last six hours (wine ). Less than pre tsm but a veritable binge for wk 19 .
So bang , bang went the triggers and they blasted me over to the drinks cabinet.
I'm taking a view on the whole thing and accepting somewhat that the holiday period is here and I'll let the triggers blow . The autumn will be round in a couple of months , the new academic year and then I'll be six months done and into more effort unless NAl has worked a bigger miracle than it already has but for now I'm in extinction mode .
My doubts on that point loom large ,as the extinction phase ( after induction ) I just have no proof yet , in fact my drinking and craving seem to be increasing . I 've never doubted that NAL curbs my consumption but extinction... not yet . It'll come or not we'll see .
I was like Bob and WTE until 3 weeks ago , I'd read every single post but seem to have let that slide , I'll ride slower for a while but will not quit here as I'm truly with you all and so , so, want us all to break on through to the other side .
When I see what providence wrote about drinking without NAl it jerked me to at least accept that there is a perverse desire in me to drink without NAL and get the original buzz , and so far I never have done that , but I do have to accept the existence of such a voice and wonder what it means ? I'm sorry i hate voicing doubts but .... reckon it's best because they simply exist .
I'm done !
All the best to all of you .

Thankyou so much WTE for your words of cheer there . You''re right we've to leave tracks of our sadder moments , of course , of course .
On a positive note though, re the perverse imp that wants to drink without NAl , I hear it , but very very largely just don't heed it and this is very good news because I checked out over at Rational Recovery's site to see if there was anything about tsm and they were saying that's why it won't work as alkies will always want to let go of their medics and go for the big buzz . I see why they say that, but our experience has been to disproove it ,we may admit hearing such a voice but remain firm in commitment to the golden rule simply because it FEELSdeeply right .
To me , you and all the rest who come here . I'm amazed and delighted by our staying power .
having a rotten hangover today , the lying in bed really brought back memories of how bad it was , and so glad that this was rare these last months
hope you're well , I'll be catching up on all posts and see how you're doing .

I have been more tempted to stop alcohol altogether at this point than to stop Naltrexone of my own free will.

Why would individuals try to quit drinking or check themselves into rehab or voluntarily go to those depressing AA nicotine/caffeine empowerment meetings, if every alky was that selfish? Wouldn't the same philosophy apply to smokers too? That they must be forced to quit since they would be seeking their nicotine buzz? It appears that the majority of addicted people do not want to be addicted. I see it in smokers all the time. I even see it in coffee drinkers... most want to be free of caffeine addiction.

I went to the Rat. Recovery website and found this little gem: "In AVRT-based recovery, families require the addicted member to choose between his addiction and family membership." Wow, they're really pushing the envelope of modern scientific methods with that statement. Humans are by far not the only species that have addictions. Monkeys, squirrels, cats, rats, etc. can be addicted and probably every mammal and bird and possible more as well. I wonder how Sinclair's rats' families conveyed their ultimatum on their helpless afflicted selfish brethren. Oh, that's right, we're in the age of science and reason. Sinclair's rats quit due to chemical changes in their brains where they no longer wanted alcohol.

Perhaps we can combine Rat. Recovery with TSM and have families force Naltrexone on their alcoholic family member so they can experience extinction without using their free will, since we're all selfish alkies.

I don't know why I got so riled up about this subject, but it is hard to believe that a non-AA recovery group in this day and age would lump all alcoholics into one category with one type of personality trait, that of being selfish. It is so unlike the reality that I see here on this very website where we are personally helping ourselves often with little help from family or physicians.

Bob

I've been riled up about Rational Recovery sice I checked over there yesterday, about their theory that we are the embodiment of selfishness and that we don't deserve to be part of our own families, before I recounted that here.

Rational Recovery is the most vicious, degrading, sadistic "treatment" ever devised for problem.

To the novice, there is the lure of the "good news" that AA is a crock because we really are not powerless over alcohol. But then more reading about AVRT and all the selfishness crap is enough to an alcohol addict feel the lowest ever the next time he selfishly takes that next drink.

I hope they disappear long before the twelve steppers.

Just my opinion.

I dislike intensely the way that RAt Rec argues that by your own freewill you chose to drink again , I fell down five times normally after 8/10 weeks and always took it on board that I was selfishly allowing my animal desires to take control .
If AA said such a thing i'd balk but I was persuaded by RR because their argument was about assuming power and not powerlessness and I dearly wanted to give it my best shot . There was no tsm then .It is to my mind right to try your best but ..... if you fail you will always feel you didn't try hard enough
Why did I fail ? Too hard wired on alc ?

I do however admit to a voice , imp that suggests drinking without NAl , I wonder if it's just an aspect or variant on craving as well as a strand of anxiety as it often comes in terms of "hey , ok I want NAl now but how will I feel in 6 months or two years " or maybe I just got brainwashed by Rat rec ???
In any case I don't heed voice and Why now do I find it easy to resist stupid idea of not taking NAL ? answer : because NAL is very powerful and the alternative is quite awful to consider .

Elfern -- As one who was forced by circumstance to drink without nal for a time (illness & surgeries requiring rx pain meds) I can assure anyone who wonders that it is no picnic to drink without it. I don't like to talk about it much on the board, lest anyone think it allright to go off nal by choice. Drinking while I couldn't take the nal made me feel sad and disappointed I was undoing the TSM time I had in, or at least losing precious time working on my cure.

Dr. Eskapa has a brilliant answer (pp.105-106) to any fool who suggests that an alcohol addict would likely avoid compliance with TSM so as not to lose the buzz. We don't drink for the buzz; we drink because our brains are hardwired to seek and drink alcohol.

The 85% success rate belies this RatRec nonsense. What's their success rate? Divorce rate? Suicide rate?

Lena , I am not entirely sure whether you 're suggesting that I am a fool or not it looks ambiguous . But if it is the case it's bloody rude and not to the point because ALL i've done is testified to what crosses my mind ie being honest and why ever not ? I've also said how on balance I do not heed the voice .

I am not a spy or an advocate of RAt Rec . it is simply what I thought best to inspire motivation over powerlessness and to that point it was good .
Please read what I say and allow it .

Elfern,

For what it's worth, I didn't take Lena's response as negative at all - simply reinforcing the importance of ignoring that crazy voice about not taking Nal before drinking, which you've already stated. I know nothing about this Rational Recovery method, but it's obvioulsy crap if any part of it suggests we are powerless. It's clear to see that is why any mention of it tends to spark angry feelings here. I'm so thankful to have found TSM before wasting time with any other program. We're all on the same team here, and I have no doubt we are all here to offer positive support.

You're one of our valued TSM warriors, and I'd LOVE one of those glasses!

I couldn't agree more. Lena is offering her experience as helpful information. I don't see any malice in the post. I think we should give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

I am so glad we don't have live chat. I wince when I think of how many misunderstandings occur when typing our own thoughts and in interpreting others thoughts from what they have written. Now magnify that by not proof-reading in a live chat and you have all the components necessary for significant misunderstandings.

Bob

Agree, KK and Bob. Lena was simply pointing out how foolish it would be to purposely drink without the nal -- I don't think she meant to put you down, Elfern. I also agree with Elfern that we should, above all else, honestly share our experiences here without fear of attack. And knowing what I know of Lena, she was expressing her strong distaste for Rational Recovery (which I completely agree with) as well as her observation that only a fool would purposely quit the nal and then drink (which I also completely agree with). I'm confident that she doesn't think Elfern, that you are a fool for speaking your mind but I can see why you could interpret her words that way. As Bob so wisely stated, we are all trying to help each other out and we should always give each other the benefit of the doubt. I've never seen Lena launch an unfair attack (seen her launch some highly effective deserved ones though ) so I'm confident she wasn't trying to put you down.

Signed,

So Glad We All Can Get Along