The general consensus here on this board seems to be that most people want to see for themselves conclusively that this works before starting a huge public TSM campaign. Once there are dozens here who define themselves as "cured", I think there will be some sort of groundswell of a movement to get the word out. (There are currently only a few people who consider themselves "cured" -- maybe just one who uses that word, SpringerRider, but the board just started in February. There are MANY people who say they are no longer concerned about their drinking levels and almost everyone here reports significant to huge reductions in consumption/craving.) I tend to be a bit more aggressive than most about the desire to get the word out. I've already experienced enough decrease in cravings and drastically improved behavior while drinking that I would be ready to do more to spread the word but I'm in a small minority here. Most people just want to get cured themselves before trying to heal the world, which is entirely understandable. It's hard to help someone who is drowning when you can't swim yourself. But let me know if you come up with something, I'm all ears.

Look, I see a therapist once in a blue moon for any drugs I want. I have been seeing him for 10 years before so he listens to me. What he wants is what I am is interested in doing. of course he would never do anything he did not feel comfortable doing but he hears me and works with me to make sure it in in fact ME who gets the benefits. If you do not have a doctor who thinks this way for you then you are with the wrong doctor. Especially if it is a psychiatrist. If your brain doc doesn't seem to be on your side you have no choice but to get away as fast as possible.

When I found www.orange-papers.org, it was a great relief to me to read what I thought was only my opinion. The articles about the (alleged) hypocrisy, (alleged) double-speak, and (alleged) lies are all exposed and although I agree with a lot of the content, please read them "with a grain of salt" because as with all such accusatory writings, the facts may be stretched a bit. There is a lot of information to digest from many different authors, but is worth reading, especially for articles about AA's extraordinarily high failure rate.

Regarding AA efficacy compared to other methods, there is an relatively expensive book ($90) out there called "Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches: Effective alternatives (3rd ed.)", 2003, Allyn & Bacon.In Chapter 2 titled "What works? A summary of alcohol treatment research", AA is rated below placebos and "treatment as usual" (whatever that means). An excerpt from the book is here: www.behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.

Please enjoy these two links. The book excerpt cited above was difficult for my psychiatrist to ignore or dismiss. It is a scientific book. In fact, he wanted a copy of the excerpt so he could order the book.

Enjoy the information and enjoy reading the "orange papers"!

Bob

I see naltrexone is ranked as the 6th most effective treatment. I am assuming this means naltrexone with abstinence as opposed to TSM. Not bad -- 6th -- when it's being used entirely incorrectly. AA does worse than a placebo?? That's poetic. And it's the only treatment program in town and maintains a stranglehold on the medical community. Did you know that 97% of treatment facilities for alcoholism are AA based? When was the last time society clung so ferociously to something with such an utterly futile and hapless success rate? I am guessing voodoo doctors using hair samples as a weapon against their enemies have a higher efficacy rate than AA.

Interesting stuff. The "orange" review really is quite scathing! Glad I'm not the only one who hated AA on a very gutteral level -- it was almost shameful to be in the room and listen to these people and the propaganda. I went in with an open mind, but it only took about 2 minutes to see what a bunch of crap it is.

Guess it works for some people, though. Like -5%?

5% of the general alcoholic population undergo spontaneous remission; they stop with no treatment whatsoever. Therefore, AA is at best completely ineffective, since these people were likely to recover with no "help", or at worst, since AA is statistically less effective than doing nothing, it actually hurts people that were going to recover. And that's the real tragedy.

OK, I think everyone knows how I feel about AA now. Some people do like it or are ambivalent about it and I really do not want to insult them, so I'll stop my rant. It's just that I lost so much of my life to them...

Bob

Bob, you are a gentleman and it's admirable that you don't want to offend anyone. BUT here is the reality about AA: it is the number one reason naltrexone and TSM are getting absolutely no publicity, IMO. "Abstinence only! Abstinence only!" This mantra is so ingrained in our collective consciousness that ANY possible treatment that involves continued drinking in any shape or form is immediately dismissed as preposterous and dangerous. AA and TSM really are incompatible and ultimately there will be a monumental clash between these two treatments. But at this point, AA holds the heavyweight title (despite its hapless success rate) and is refusing to even permit TSM the chance to step into the ring for an open and honest competition. This is why I resent AA. I believe that ultimately, as the success of TSM is demonstrated on a wider domestic scale, AA will have to be discredited in order for TSM to gain general acceptance. If you accept the tenets of AA, you simply cannot accept the legitimacy of TSM, IMO.

argh. I don't want to diss the system but in my 11th and 12th week I'm bombing bad. I want this to work so bad I can't stand it. So if there is inspiration out there, now is the time to kick it in.

Em, Your progress before the 11th and 12th week looks really great. I'm pretty close to where you are, time-wise, and I was feelikng really discouraged about my progress, especially when I just looked at the weekly numbers. But then I started looking at some of the other ways of counting progress. Such as average drinks per night (that one looked a little better), and making a chart of my overall progress was a real eye-opener. My progress was clear to see on a day-to-day basis, even when I couldn't see it in the weekly numbers.

When I was learning how to play guitar, I would sometimes get really frustrated because I would practice constantly, but my learning only seemed to come in bursts, followed by plateaus, or even dips. Sometimes I would be getting worse at guitar the more I practiced! And then invariably I would experience a sudden quantum jump in ability. It was like my brain was saving up for that big burst of learning.

I know for me TSM has a bit of that same quality. I seem to "bomb bad" as you say right before I make a leap in progress. I sure hope that holds true for you as well. One thing for sure, looking at your numbers, you are definitely making awesome progress!

Hang in there - we April friends gotta stick together!

fire

edit: really bad spelling!

You were down 40% two weeks ago for two weeks. That's huge! Keep your chin up and keep popping the nal.

Two thumbs up and a pat on the back from Minneapolis.