Hi Hikergal, Welcome and hopefully who will pull through the Nal-overs. What worked for me in the beginning was taking 12.5 mgs. Whatever you do, don't stop taking the Nal. Not taking it is what has derailed me a number of times. I think you may have hit the nail on the head with the abstaining for a couple of days and then the Nal overs were worse. I'm not sure if this is good advice, but if you look up Magda, she has a recipe for hangovers in general that might help. It's what I like to call a pre-tox supplement regime. Stay well, Keek

Thanks UK blonde for I believed that my overindulging cause my nal. overs; however, I will still limit my intake for fear of having them. And when I have them with having 1 glass of wine, I think I will need to reconsider drinking altogether. For I really thought I was going to die with those nal. overs. And I think you have a good point with reducing the dose.



Newlife, you should be patting yourself on the back for that is great news. Like I have said before, I stop myself from over drinking, my brain is still screaming FEED ME, but now I can walk away (or go to bed) and not be compelled to drink that entire bottle (or 2). Doesn't it feel good to have that control?

And, I am bad about children movies. When my children were younger and my husband took them to spend the night over grandmas, I was watching a Disney Movie. My husband can home he was like WTF, I watch this crap when they are here and you seriously not wanting to leave until this is over! Needless to say I am an emotional sap! So I will have to look into that movie...and I liked Hotel Transylvania I thought it was very entertaining and I have seen it about 2 times...yes I have a mind like a child!

Jaba

I experienced an nalover on no more than 5 UK units, which was nothing for me - pre-TSM I was a 30 unit drinker, no more than 16 UK units during TSM and usually 6-10 UK units at around the time I had the nalover.

Jaba, having a mind like a child is a good thing not a bad thing. Pure and happy. xoxo Newlife

Until I have a tantrum for my alcohol!

I disagree but this is only based upon my experience. I had many periods during TSM where I was abstenant for anything from a week up to several months at a time, no nal taken, then had an evening of several drinks with 50mg nal dose and no nalover.

The longer (more than several weeks) periods of abstenance were after what I call cure point, but it does show that for me abstenance was not responsible for Nalovers.

Just a couple of thoughts for hikergirl and anyone else interested going through my head. I'm not sure what a Nal-over really is since I have not ever had one. I sure as heck know what a good hangover is though

First of all I think when one is contemplating starting TSM one has to think of it as a dedicated treatment program that is going to take time and have it's periods of ups and downs and that you really need to put all things off to one side till you start to see success. So, don't feel guilty about anything, don't be upset if you drank more then you wanted and don't try and control it. The last point is important.

You have to actually drink in order for this to work. So if you are feeling guilt and cut back on your drinking then you are doing more harm then good. I know that sounds strange but my understanding of the science behind it is as such. If you force AF days then you are feeding alcohol deprivation syndrome and you may be making it more difficult for you. It's hard, I know, we all have work to do, places to go, people to meet and so on but when you start TSM you are dedicating a minimum of three months out of your entire life to a program that will make you better. So stick to it and keep a positive out look

Remember we are alcoholics and we cannot control our drinking for a variety of reasons. But in order for TSM to work you shouldn't be controlling your drinking. You should take your Naltrexone an hour before your first drink and then proceed to drink as normal. So don't be surprised if you cannot control your intake and don't even try to do so or else you are fighting against TSM.

Okay so finally, if indeed you are drinking to excess on Naltrexone then it's probably best to use the recommended 50mg dose as has been clinically proven to be effective in treating alcoholism. For me and many others a fraction of that dosage works but that's because we have reduced our numbers to a significant lower level. If you are consuming 10 drinks for example in one night then the Naltrexone will block it only up to a point in time that may be shorter then the amount of time alcohol is in your system. So you drink all night on a lower dose of Naltrexone and block the rush but then go to bed and the Naltrexone wears out of your system in the presence of alcohol. I have no idea if that is what causes a Nal-over but in any case it's not good. So a higher recommended dose will prevent that.

Just barking out my thoughts.

This is a q&a from options saves live forum


I know TSM is not suppose to be rocket science but my BIG question is if you took Nal and drank what amount of Alcohol may make a difference at each sitting in the re-wiring of your brain? I know there may not be a certain amount but does it matter if it is one drink or ten? I ask this as many of us ask how often you should drink with Nal to kick start extinction. I am of the thinking that the more I take Nal+Drinking the sooner my brain will be re-wired along with taking Nal+Drinking more drinks in an alotted time period may re-wire my brain.
Sorry but this is not covered in the book and if Dr Eskapa could tell me Nal + 1 drink would do it each session then I would not have to go through the hell of hangovers (nalovers).


Hi Cheeto,

I put your question to Dr Eskapa and below is his reply....

Central to the concepts of learning and extinction is generalisation of effects. Thus if one went away to a beach in Goa and only drank while on naltrexone ... on returning home to the old cues and stimuli associated with drinking (triggers) the extinction that had happened in Goa might not be present ... and craving and drinking might surge ... it depends. This was noted with many Vietnam Vets who were addicted to opiates but on returning to the US the addiction diminished.... again this is Pavlovian physiology and psychology and was pointed out by Sinclair.


I do not believe that extinction can be sped up beyond a certain speed. But if one tried abstinence and then spaced out drinking sessions with an opioid antagonist every time 'relapse' occurred .. there would be extinction but it would progress very slowly.


The central concept in TSM is to drink as one normally would - and there are huge individual variation in how the drinking was learned (weekend bingers. daily heavy drinkers, etc) always with the medication to prevent reinforcement to the opioid system. Again, some people respond faster than others. It is probably a matter of genes, physiology and duration of the unwanted learned behaviour. Sinclair suggests that people do not drink to the level where alcohol poisoning becomes a problem.... even with the opioid antagonist.


The idea the more you drink on nal the faster the rewiring (or de-wiring) will occur I do not think has been tested and as I said the rates of response vary among the 80% who can be helped. Claudia was one of the lucky ones who responded quickly.. others take 10 months no matter.

Ocean, with nal I had a honeymoon period of one week and then my numbers went way up. I stopped counting because I was so disturbed by them. Then I started counting again but I know that my numbers have gone down because I have been counting and "working" on not drinking as much. Are you saying that in the long run it would be better for me to just drink as I always have and wait? I have seen conflicting info about this. Some people say that I have to change the way I behave regarding alcohol and not expect the nal to do it all for me.

I am going to start rereading the book. I was probably half in the bag when I read it the first time.

deena,

That is why I posted the Q&A from the options save lives forum. I think if you want to be really sure to ask them. I get conflicting messages from them as well. I don't think anyone really knows; however,per dr. Eskapap "I do not believe that extinction can be sped up beyond a certain speed. But if one tried abstinence and then spaced out drinking sessions with an opioid antagonist every time 'relapse' occurred .. there would be extinction but it would progress very slowly."

If this makes any sense at all...I am going to continue doing what I am doing for I do not like nal. overs and I have nothing but time.

Jaba