Well, we do see some posts from people saying that TSM hasn't worked for them. Often we find that they didn't follow the Golden Rule, but not always. Sometimes it genuinely doesn't work.

I think you're right overall, though.

Hi triplab,

I hear ya. I really do.

While I was going through TSM i had exactly the same questions. Some things just didn't make sense - If TSM is such a phenomenal solution, why is it so unknown? I know there are reasons offered, such as protecting an industry, etc, but there are plenty of other drugs that have beneficial affects in exactly the same way - and threaten existing industries in exactly the same way - but knowledge of them still spreads through the medical community.

Anyway, I wanted to comment on your post because 1) you are implying your drinking is not dropping, and 2) I have a definition of cured that has evolved with time, and is no longer consistent with the definition with most others on this board. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I needed an objective stake in the ground that works for me. Please take a look at my latest update because there could be things you recognize. Specifically, I saw no reduction in drinking at all during my time on TSM, but am definitely in a position now to claim the cured status (or will be April 2015) . viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3871

And a final note on your units not dropping: Even if they don't, that may not be that important. There appears to be scientific evidence that alcohol consumption drops simply when the subject (most, anyway) participates in a program. For example, at this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3746807/ , it showed that both participating groups (the nalmafene group and the placebo group) showed dramatic drops in alcohol consumption, but the nalmafene group showed a greater drop. (The introduction section refers to this "Phenomenon"). From this we can take it that alcohol consumption simply drops when individuals start a program for measuring/moderating consumption, even when there is no medical basis for it. I would think that this makes it precarious to base the claim of being cured on the reduction in units consumed. At least in the short term, anyway. It would seem to me that the only way to know would be years down the track.

Again, speaking solely and purely for myself; Making no claims on the results others may experience.

Hello Android,

its great to read your posts and your updates on your own progress. There is now a group of us you are quite right that have gone through the honeymoon and are entering the 'what why how come' phase.

Pondering this today I realise that TSM will cure the addiction side of things, however we aren't rats.. we associate drinking with good and bad things, there aren't rats that think 'tonight Ill have a large bottle of wine whilst I watch a film..that's will be great' and similarly they don't wake up the next day saying to themselves 'again.. I cant believe it..why do you do this to yourself'

Whilst I have faith that the addiction will be cured and therefore the craving, I worry about the habit but I am already getting myself hobbies etc to combat this.

Lastly I question whether anyone having done TSM can become a social drinking, I can see drinking at feast days and holidays, but I see very little chance of me taking a Nal which then blocks any 'fun' activities for 48 hours just so I can have a glass of wine with lunch or dinner... in fact last couple of days I have been thinking 'if I have taken a Nal then I am gonna drink more to make up for the fact that I have blocked endorphins so may as well make the most of it'

Hi android. I actually read your post previously and love hearing from folks who have had success, but still question things that don't feel quite right. That is my nature as well and I do think the variety of experiences and paths to take using Nal and TSM as the backbone of attempted relief from alcohol dependence is perhaps undervalued.

I may have left the impression from my rant that my personal drinking has not decreased, but I was just making a point about my observations of typical questions made by many on this board. My personal drinking actually has reduced significantly and I have experienced strong reaction to Nal with few side affects. My physical cravings for more alcohol have subsided, but my habit and the ritualistic way I have long incorporated the "reward" of alcohol in to my life is what I struggle most with now. This is where I personally think I need to cast the net a bit wider than to just keep drinking normally while taking Nal. I have noticed a recent uptick in my drinking after a nice honeymoon period (still well below pre-nal) and this has raised questions for me that I am working out by posting my thoughts all over the place =)

This of course is the subject of much discussion, once TSM works what's left to be done.

Once TSM gives you back control, you're free to make the necessary decisions that change habits and other aspects of our lives.

What's of interest is the chicken and egg question. Do you need to force something in order to maximise TSM or let TSM do all the work and then simply change what still needs to change later.

"Simply" changing what still needs to be changed after letting TSM do all the work is quite a leap for me. Because for the past several years up until about eight weeks ago when I took my first pill, a major part of my life consisted of planning to drink, drinking, and recovering from drinking while making more plans to drink.

triplab

Yes you are absolutely correct. I'm approaching week six and I feel the same.

However part of me understands that Nal/TSM are working at a subconscious level and if "the little pill" is rewiring the brain as the science suggests we cannot influence what's going on even if we try.

Attempting to change habits or force af days etc etc are just another part of our brain doing what we have tried to do in the past when quitting drinking using more conventional methods.

I guess there's a danger that unless the extinction process is allowed to work fully, which can take from weeks to years. Then I guess you may not have been cured by TSM but by placebo and using a certain amount of will power. In turn will this just unravel sometime later?

The stories that excite me most are where there's good evidence of extinction and indifference.

Last night I tested myself, normally I take Nal at 5pm ready for 6/7pm drinks. Last night I didn't take Nal at 5 as I wanted to see if I had any cravings and how strong they were. I was disappointed, by 6 pm I had taken my Nal just in case and by 7 pm I was pacing, bored was it craving or was it habit?

Whatever I experienced (craving or habit) it would have been possible to force a af night by distraction, going out somewhere or clearing by garage. I then thought to myself this isn't TSM working for me so I gave in and had a few beers. Less than pre TSM but I'm not yet at the point where im in control enough to take the next step of changing other things related to my drinking.

I'm happy enough right now to know that TSM is doing its stuff in the background and in a few weeks time I'll try again and see if my experience is any different.

For me it's important to feel indifferent. I don't want to constantly think about drinking, I want to have zero cravings, I want to be where I was before all this got out of control. I don't want to be a dry drunk or someone who has even the slightest feeling towards putting poison down my throat in the name of pleasure.
IMHO ANYTHING LESS THAN PHARMACUTICAL EXTINCTION AND COMPLETE INDIFFERENCE THEN TSM HASNT WORKED FOR ME.

This is why it can very helpful to track your daily cravings as well (scale 0-10). And after a while it can be helpful to include a weekly goal as well. This will make you able to track your amount of control.

So:
- Unit count
- Craving
- Weekly goal

Those should give you some good overall view of your progress.

I totally agree thistime, I very much feel that I am following a habit at the moment, I also feel that I am forcing af days (as before they are always forced) because I want to see results. At the other end of the spectrum I am drinking more as I have a green light.. more drink = more extinction!!!

I am waiting for this ambivalence to occur, but of course its very early days, all I really feel is the habit kicking in every night at 5pm.

This habit and addiction has been formed over many many years and its only right it take a while to go, if I was going to be particularly glass half full I would say that I am glad that I haven't responded fast as I to would worry that it might be a placebo effect; I have had enough of those before whenever I have tried out a new drinking regime.

Some of us pop back from time to time.

I have gotten to the point where alcohol isnt even a factor anymore, so I dont think to get on here. Plus, well, it feels kind of wierd giving advice when I am so far removed from the problem. I dont have any daily struggles with alcohol anymore.

Last time I logged in, I saw a post from plantpro about intermittent reinforcement that sounded like I could have written it. I knew that someone was on here preaching to the noobs, so I let it go for a while.

IMHO, there should be a sticky with 10 threads to read when you come here.

Maybe a thread each that shows a persons experince with each...

1. Side effects
2. Fast responder
3. Slow responder
4. Relapse (i think barry and generic have threads on this)
5. Intermittent reinforcement
6. Where'd everybody go?
Etc...