Tiller, I'm only seeing your quite reasonable reply. I get that this is a support forum for people trying The Sinclair Method. I'm not posting on anyone else's thread...I've no problem with anyone here, I'm just sharing my experience.

I was a major proponent of TSM up to a point, I actually gave the book to someone for their wife because I was utterly convinced of its validity. I left this forum after it didn't work out, but I thought it appropriate to come back...I'm angry at having been taking advantage of by Eskapa and his fudged or exaggerated data in the name of making a buck from selling a book. .. for me, I wanted this to be the answer.

I was referring to your earlier post on El's thread.

"I'm not posting on anyone else's thread" - well, at least mine....
Anyways, to each his own, I'm glad that you've found a method that works for you. But Eskapa did not "take advantage" of you or anyone else. He wrote a book. That costs maybe 15 bucks. That you could buy or not buy. I think a lot of us would consider multi-thousand dollar rehab centers a bit more of a con, especially when they don't work...

You've got to know that something is wrong when "don't drink" is bad or hurtful advice. He misrepresented the data, he had to have. Even anecdotally that has to be obvious from reading around the forum. I know you're a real person with a real problem and I didn't mean to mess your day up, if Naltrexone has helped you (and in all likelihood it has) that's great and I'm happy for you. If you're going to keep drinking, keep taking it....but in my opinion you're leaving yourself open to significant risks and I think you should quit before irreconcilable losses occur.

I loved your earlier response indicating you aren’t housebroken. I guess the dog ate your homework and that’s why you made bad grades in college?

Eskapa never said to drink and not to drink was hurtful advice. In fact, if you had read the book, you would know he clearly states multiple times if one is abstinent, they should stay that way. Several times you have posted words to the effect, “drinking at will.” Yet another mischaracterization about TSM.

I think you are a troll, and at this point, I am going to stop feeding you.

And I think you're either irresponsible, or completely delusional. You're definitely rude though.

Also, RE: breaking abstinence to try TSM-
ellpee is planning to do just that and hasn't received one bit of discouragement, apart from me. In fact, the idea seems to be supported which is insane

I looked up the people I used to hang with when I was still about to see how they were doing when they last came here and below is what they said. Both positive and negative stories are included. A few reported benefit, but only 1 of the 12 report what could be described as a cure by Eskapa's definition and in the mean time Jim Clark lost his licence. Hardly "The Cure for Alcoholism" that was promised:

Joe12Pack: “Compared to when I was drinking pre TSM, I am amazingly in control and it is other people who get too drunk. compared to when I was totally abstinent, I am loving life so much more. It really is a life saver…Again, definitely not cured but absolutely doing way better than pre Nal. TSM didn't work for me but the craving control of Nal really helps”
Kiwichick: “Hi,
I have not posted on this site for approx 8 months....and I now cannot find my weekly progress thread? Maybe I disappeared for good? No such luck. I am still alive and kicking ! : )

I have had some big ups and downs since I last posted - and am keen to catch up with all who are still here.

Catcha here soon.

Kiwi.”

Jim Clark: “Thought I'd give you an update as its only been about 10 months....

I got a gig working onboard a ship in Australia playing in a trio. That I Look forward too....

I'm still not cured. Got popped with a second DUI and lost my license....so a ship is a great place for me without one.....”
Beentheredonethat: “Hi everyone,

Tomorrow marks 6 months on my journey with TSM.

As I've been closing in on that date, I've been drinking more and more. The past two weeks have been a huge spike. It's almost like I'm trying to have more extinction episodes per week to move things along. Needless to say, I'm not feeling too hot and still ambivelent about continuing. However, things are different and my relationship with alcohol is changing. I leave half glasses of wine around and when I don't drink I really don't miss it.

I've decided to go 7 days AF just to help me change my habits for a week. I need to adjust my routine. We went out of town last weekend and not drinking then was really easy - I didn't care. It's only tricky when I'm doing the same thing every night at home.

Wish me luck. I'll post my chart next week... BTDT”


YogaGirl “Hi HG,
Just wanted to say hi after a long absence. How are you doing? I went off the rails for while - I got impatient and thought TSM wasn't working. But turns out it was, just slowly and subtly.
I look forward to finding out how everyone is doing. Hope you are well!
YG”

StJude “I haven't posted on this forum in months (lurking occasionally) and I'm so glad I checked in and read this thread. I started TSM in Oct 2010, had great success with it and am still doing great. I was one of the heaviest drinkers on here, 3 bottles of wine/night every night of the week. I had immediate and dramatic success with TSM. Over the past 6 weeks I have noticed an uptick in my consumption. I never drink w/o NAL but I used to go weeks without drinking (on a health/fitness kick) and lately have been drinking fare more than usual, several nights a week and many more units. I haven't drank myself to the point of feeling "drunk" but not drinking had become such a habit that it feels weird to drink again. I am going through major life stressors, my Dad is currently dying, several states away & I've been flying back and forth to visit him in i.c.u., so my whole daily routine is thrown off and I suspect I'm drinking more to cope with stress. But I've had stress in life before this and didn't turn to alcohol as an outlet. I'm mildly alarmed but am going to roll with it, am still drinking far less than I was pre-TSM and am being safe (never drink during daytime or drink & drive which were both awful but regular habits I'm ashamed to say). Perhaps I should go back to measuring units, I'd stopped when I started going so many weeks and months without consuming any units.”

Path: “it's hard for me to see this as a lot of progress, so it's good to have other eyes on it, and really good to have the support.
wk 23 total units 46. i am nothing if not consistant mostly it took effort to keep my units to 6 or 7 a day. one day i was happily okay with 5, and one day i had 8, despite my efforts. i'm still really wishing that the lower units were just magically appearing, that i was not having to work for it. did i ever mention that i am lazy?
today i had one magic moment in that i forgot to plan ahead and take nal an hour before i was ready for my first beer, so i had to wait til 7. i take forgetting as a sign of being ever so slightly less obsessed with when i can have that first beer.”

Saint Vincent “So its been about 7 months since I visited the forum and I thought I would provide an update. I stopped counting units after reporting data for 1 year. I felt like recovery-ism had taken over my life and I just wanted to live and not think about it too much. Life is good. I walk among the normal people of the world and I blend in pretty well with them. Last night I was AF and the night before I had 2 glasses of wine. This past weekend I was out with my girlfriend and two other couples and one of the guys had too much to drink. He was slurring his words and saying embarrassing things in front of his wife. I was really glad I was not him because I have walked in his shoes. We had some drinks that night and stopped when we didn't feel like having anymore and just left the unfinished drinks behind us. I had to drive about 20 miles away so it was good to be able to enjoy a responsible night out and not have to worry about driving under the influence. I can definitely still go out and have a big night now but a big night is 5 drinks over the evening where it used to be 10-12 drinks. I take nal every time I drink and that is the only rule I follow at this point. I'm enjoying being able to go out to dinner and have wine or watch a game and have a drink with my girlfriend and not have to white knuckle it. I'm working out, eating healthy, and enjoying life. My relationship with my kids is good. TSM has changed my life for the better. It still required some effort but what in life that is a worthy goal doesn't. I wish everyone well and I'll try to come back and give an update down the road. Nal-on!”

weird-oh: “I've been on TSM since last June, and thought things were going pretty well. My units were steadily declining - until about a week ago. Suddenly, I started getting the old cravings again, even though I've been taking Nal religiously. Why in the hell would this happen after all this time? I'm beginning to think this has all been a big waste of time. Has anyone else experienced this?
Hi, SV -

Yes, things seem to be a bit better, although last week I went on another minor binge. I'm still below my old level of drinking, but I notice that alcohol is in my thoughts more than it was, which is problematic. Staying the course for now. Thanks for asking.”

Tambo: “Finished my 31st week with 11 units and 5 AF days.

Friday night I went out to a night club with an old high school friend that I hadn't seen in 15 years! I used to have a slight crush on her. I had 10 units over the course of 5 hours which is a little more than I would have liked, but I didn't black out and I didn't act stupid. I actually had a blast. I spent the night dancing, talking, and flirting. My old friend and I actually had a lot of chemistry. Pre-TSM, I would've have been blacked out within 30 minutes of entering the club, woken up someplace strange, wondering who I pissed off the night before, then spend the rest of the day hungover, riddled with guilt trying to piece together what happened.

Last night I went to a baseball game and had 1 beer. No craving for more at the game or when I got home. Pre-TSM, one drink would lead to a 3 day binge from hell.

This thing works and I don't have to hide from life for it to work.”
Slipstreamer: “I started nal a year ago and have seen some progress after 25 years of moderate drinking. But I still can't stop--as I'd like to to feel "control"--after two glasses of wine. Then I reach for more if it's available. If I drink three or more I suffer the next day. I know that for heavy drinkers my concern might seem trivial, but I really would like to lose interest in drinking more wine after one or two. Yet nal doesn't seem to stop me.

Will more time help? Do some have to work at it for more than a year? I don't know of any other options than to keep on trying. Thanks for any suggestions.”

Half a glass of wine: “Sticky my old friend - I'm still around although I don't post much. I'm still taking Nal and drinking Al. I know you are discouraged and so I wanted to post for you today that I always check your thread. Despite what you think you have made progress. Your numbers have decreased. I know that you still binge drink and that brings you down, but hang in there. Re-read Seeking1's post about regaining control before you give up. It took him/her two years to do it. That's why I haven't given up yet.

I've been at a plateau now for several months and like you I've been doing TSM for nearly 16 months. Despite that, I have seen improvement. I can still remember when there was much less control in my life than I have now. I know that if I stopped Nal my drinking would skyrocket quickly and all that really out of control stuff would start again. I still drink way too much but I continue to see changes. Like the fact that I can't drink Pinot Noir anymore. It was my only drink when I joined this forum. Now it makes me gag. I stopped drinking it about 2 months ago and if it is all I have to drink then I won't drink! So, I've moved on to white wine which will someday make me gag too. I've tried other things like margaritas and found that after just one night I can't drink anymore as the "new" alcoholic beverage makes me gag. So, just hang in there. You and I may be those two year folks like Seeking1.

Love and support to you, Half Glass!”

Hi Spacious,
You know about a year ago I stopped going to an AA group - not because I didn't like the people, but I realized it was a support group for a certain type of treatment for a disease I suffer with, and I didn't agree that it was the approriate treatment. As opposed to sitting in meetings and challenging people's beliefs and hope for relief from an awful disease, I had to move on. I miss some of them terribly, but I know I couldn't provided support in the atmosphere and it wasn't my position to participate. This site is a support group for the sinclair method - if you don't agree with it fine. You have told the forum about your experience. Great. But maybe there is another support group that would suit your recovery better - and for those trying this method they can rely on the positive hope on this board.
I wish you and everyone else in the world a solid recovery from this terrible disease.
Mac

Hi Spacious,

I've been following along with the back-and-forth between you and others, and typically I like to avoid such situations, but I'm going to have to agree with Mac here. While I can appreciate your opinion that TSM doesn't work for everyone, a lot of your posting has been coming off as inflammatory. I honestly thought that your first, rather off-base post on EL's thread was generated by a spammer, as she is one of the most supportive people in this community and has earned a lot of goodwill here.

You seem to think that Eskapa is some hack that has published his book as a grand money-making scheme. "The Cure For Alcoholism" is never going to be on a best-seller list, and this companion website has very modest traffic (I belong to another forum that specializes in old-school shaving supplies [a rather esoteric interest!] and that site generates at least 50x the traffic that this one does). In his very own book, Eskapa gives reasons why he doesn't think Naltrexone/TSM will ever be a money-making treatment (i.e. Naltrexone is generic, the current rehab industry is extremely lucrative, faith/abstinence-based approaches ingrained in society). The man conducted a study. He published his results in a book.

As this site is a forum, dialogue is encouraged, but I guess I'm having trouble seeing exactly where you're trying to go with this particular discussion. We're here to support those who are willing to try/currently trying TSM, not rail against the method. You've stated that it didn't work for you, and your combination of will power and (sorry can't find the post with the drug name) ended up working. Perhaps you'd care to share some more about what your recovery experience with that combo was like - we can try to apply some of your techniques to TSM. Also, if you wouldn't mind sharing your previous username, I'd like to go back and review some of your older posts.

Thanks much.

-H

Also wanted to quickly comment on this. It is common knowledge that long-time abstainers are at risk of serious relapse (even in AA), so I don't think it's an insane idea to suggest that those that have abstained for a long period and are willing to try TSM should go for it if they feel they are at risk of a serious binge if they relapse. Ellpee mentions his intake pre-TSM (which is high, even by our standards) and that he is white-knuckling through his sobriety. That can be a dangerous combination for a relapse.

Why not try to eliminate his alcoholism through TSM for good rather than live in a tentative, uncomfortable state of sobriety?

Spacious: I want to address this specifically. I, personally, have mixed feelings about the people who come to TSM from abstinence and want to try to find a way to drink normally. There is little enough good research about conventional TSM (ie: people who are drinking who want to regain control). There's no research I know about regarding abstinence-to-controlled-drinking. So I don't have any clue how effective such an approach is. And because harm reduction is the general goal of all this I'm uneasy with the risk.

That said, the reason I generally don't advise against it is I don't feel it's my business. I certainly would never characterize the choice as "insane," especially if it's someone who has not posted a lot on the board. I just don't know enough to make an intelligent statement about such individual cases.

There was one recent case, though, where a number of us warned off a fellow traveler who did TSM, eventually decided to abstain, and toyed with drinking again. Why in this case? Because we know this person from long, long history on the forum. It would, in my opinion, a bad idea to offer generic "don't do it" advice to people I don't know who have just arrived at the board.

If you look, you will find ample agreement on the board that the term "cure" is problematic. Many of us prefer to set the goal as "control." And defining that term is, in my view, up to the individual. For some it means staying within US government guidelines. For others it means harm reduction: drinking more than guidelines suggest but less (often far less) than they were before.

One of the things I value about this forum is the lack of dogma. Aside from "don't drink and drive," the only rule generally offered is nal+wait one hour + patience may = cure/control. There's plenty of honest talk around here that TSM does not work for everyone. In times past people threw around statistics about success rates but I don't see much of that in the past year.

Bottom line: we're adults making choices. I'm here to support people who are trying to make a positive change in their lives.