Let us know how continuing TSM effects everything, but even if it never gets "better," as long as it gets no worse, you've won. You've gained control over one of the most dangerous and historically impossible to treat addictions ever known. Even if it means pills and *some* effort for the rest of your life, that's pretty good.



Ha, academically and theoretically, I see your point and agree with you. But actually, I have 0.000% doubt that NAL works and worked for me. And since I'm not a scientist and don't care about changing anyone's mind, I really don't give a damn if anyone thinks I'm right or wrong Hopefully future scientific studies will confirm that the "cured" are not just suffering mass delusion.

AND WHEN WE HAVE MORE CURED ,...the best way is to have a convention. I'd love to meet you lugs at a stuffy hotel conference room with cheap art on the walls,.... FLA in dead winter is still my suggestion,...sorry European and Aussie,, Kiwi, cats,...My ethnocentricity shows

My Best, jim....

PS Signing off for the night 1.16 AM 5 units,...bedtime to meet the shrink for the 8 AM session,...ughh

Non nal sessions don't seem to have sent me into a tailspin. I feel the same as if I've taken NAL....Maybe the AL feels a bit better. but really, I think my one year of therapy has produced a bit of a cure...more than I choose to admit....Habit has kept me drinking more than the addiction and whatever else I'm numbing....now thats the $1,000,000 question

Respectfully, the false sense that there is no hope is killing alcoholics every day. It almost killed me. The dominant paradigm that alcoholism is a progressive, incurable disease was simply more than my ample defense mechanisms could resist. They kicked into full gear and kept me from doing anything about my growing problem for over 20 years. I had a severe case of denial going, and it was caused by false lack of hope.

That dominant paradigm was destroyed by TSM. The hope I found in the book gave me the ability to come face to face with my problem and resolve to do something about it. If TSM hadn't worked, I was ready to move on to the next hope. But the idea that there is no hope; well that one was dead, forever.

Now, I have many problems with promises in the book, the timeframe promised, the idea that it should be totally effortless, and a good number of other things that we hear about TSM that just seem to good to be true. But the fact remains that it works. When you are cured all of this discussion of whether science backs up TSM or disproves it becomes "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". I once heard that modern science has proven that bumblebees are incapable of flight. Go tell it to the bumblebees if you can catch 'em. They will be flying, buoyed as they are by their false hopes.

Fire

Hi Nutella:thanks for your post, I do think it's important to be critically analytical of anything purporting itself as a "cure". Did we not see the same published research? I don't have my Eskapa book at my side now but I thought there were several studies cited in it regarding the use of Naltrexone to treat alchoholism. As a newbie I won't open my mouth too much, but I can tell you it's the promise of TSM that lured me, rather than believing 100% it would work. What I do know is that the existing body of clinical studies of traditional current treatment programs for alcoholism, for which we do have some longitudinal data on, have what I interpret to be dismal treatment success rates and depressingly high rates of recidivism. Even is TSM isn't much better than the current options, couldn't it be considered hope for a medical origin and treatment for the disease, as opposed to the limited and largely unsuccessful options that have been available?

Hey Nutella,

but can placebo last infinitely? I say this as a TSMer for over a year and feel that there certainly couldn't be a placebo effect after a year.... You sound like a person of science though so I bow to your opinion.

Its so nice to see all the new folk coming in and making this board so active, fascinating and interesting.

My best of luck to you all and it looks as though my problem has been averted (no NAL) thanks to a few good friends here on the board. My Best, Jim

Jim,

There is no reason to bow to anything. I am not claiming to be an expert on these things. Most of it is common sense familiar to many from first hand experiences (e.g., hangover remedies - all or most of them likely placebos). Placebo can do anything. As everyone knows, sometimes all that it takes for a drug to work is for a patient to believe that it's working. Particularly when the the key to the success is "mental" (and that's arguably at least in part the case with alcoholics), there could be a positive feedback loop - the more one believes, the more it works, which in turn prompts more confidence and more belief.

Here is a fun article on placebo if you are interested:
http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/maga ... ntPage=all

StJude,

If I understood you correctly, I totally agree with you. TSM is very different from a lot of things that at best work poorly. And it has sensible theoretical foundation (some assumptions involved here of course) and it seems to show signs of being promising in practice. As such, it absolutely needs to be seriously explored further.

By the way, I don't discount the power of placebo at all. It is modern science's attempt to come to grips the nearly unlimited power of the human mind on things we previously thought were material in nature. The power of belief is not to be underestimated, especially when we are talking about a 'disease' who's primary symptoms are behavioral. That the mind has the power to heal itself has been known since ancient times; maybe one day science will catch up.

This is why I see TSM as being most effective when it is with a complete regimen that includes journal keeping, awareness, exercise of control, as well as other personal growth activities. These help to affirm and reinforce our belief that TSM is going to work, and with few exceptions, most of the cured on this board have augmented TSM with at least some type of mental exercise to help the process along. The power of belief does not have to be a trick (placebo) to work its magic.

However, if the power of belief were all that were involved, then many other programs would fare just as well as TSM, and the fact is they don't. Even the other programs that make use of drugs fail when you stop taking the medication, whereas we have cured people who haven't taken naltrexone in months. The cure is, at that point "all in their minds".

My argument is that attempting to eliminate the "placebo effect", although necessary from a scientific point of view, is absolutely unnecessary from a practical point of view, and can even be harmful.

Nutella, I applaud scientific rigour, and I believe a certain amount of skepticism is a healthy part of TSM's becoming accepted mainstream science. However, there are people on this board using TSM right here and now, and to those people I say: use your power of belief. Trust it. Your aim is not to further modern science: your aim is to get cured. You can juggle statistics and argue theories later. There will be plenty of time for that when you are cured.

A wonderfully well stated point of view Firebird!

I myself have just recently been trying to add the mental aspect in this journey, which is one of the reasons I've been on these boards a lot more lately. I've also been exploring the My Way Out site and they very much believe in a well rounded program similar to what you are discussing here.

Thanks!

Illuminae

i couldn't resist posting this link to a really great radio show, this episode explores the placebo effect in a completely engaging and informative way. i hope anyone who listens enjoys it and learns something.

ttp://www.radiolab.org/2007/may/17/

path

i agree with you, that is a great site, and I discovered TSM through their discussion forum. i also have to give a shoutout to smartrecovery, they are abstinence based but very nonjudgmental and espouse a cognitive behavioral approach--their site has good resources and activities