Hi all..Sorry all..I know I said i was gonna take a week off of posting..But,well..Hahaha..Anyways,im a history buff..Ive also had a few,so forgive me if i ramble..One thing I don't see discussed much here,is socio-economic conditioning..Lets face it,through out history people have drank..Some more than others..What is acceptable in some cultures is not in others..Myself,I am Irish..Drinking is just part of life..Everyone I know drinks..It wasn't until I joined AA that I expierienced any social alienation..but the thing is,alcohol was killing me..I dont know where Im going with this.I was just thinking..Could it be, that depending on ones background,the defenition of cured may be different for every individual??Who's to say,6 beers a day is abnormal??Did u walk a mile in my shoes??Who's to say that any al at all is OK??Did I walk a mile in your shoes??Is it easier for someone with money to quit drinking??Or is it harder??I don't know..I guess what I'm thinking is maybe,Depending on who we are and where we are from,we may expierience tsm at different degrees and different levels..Unlike Sinclairs rats,success may be measured against the background of our socio-economic conditions..Oh well,have a good day all...Goodman

Goodman, I think alcoholism for the most part doesn't discriminate based on race, creed or socioeconomic status. The rate of alcoholism among physicians is about the same as the general population. Alcoholism is the great equalizer. The thing we all have in common is our brain chemistry. Our brain's think alcohol is as important as food or water. We share a hypersensitive reward system. From an evolutionary standpoint man was never intended to put alcohol into his system. Early man could have accidentally encountered some fermented fruit and felt the effects of alcohol much as some animals do by mistake but this would have been an infrequent occurrence. The thought of a prehistoric man looking for the next batch of fermented fruit while his group looked for food kind of cracks me up now that I think about it. While everyone else was hunting this one guy was grunting and hanging out by a bush full of fermented fruit. There are ready-made alcoholics living in Islamic cultures or alcohol avoiding religions in the US that will never ingest alcohol and never get hooked. Put these people in Finland or Ireland or Spain and within a few years they will be just like us. I didn't think your post was a ramble at all. While I'm seeking my own cure I enjoy the discussions along the way. I think the great thing about TSM is that it has shown the ability to reduce drinking levels well below normal and safe levels for it's subjects. In the 3 year follow up in Finland the average weekly consumption was down to 9 drinks per week. If I end up there it will be considered low consumption by any measure in my world.

Well said..Much food for thought..Thank you..Goodman

ok,damn it,I wish I could stop thinking..Maybe thats why I drink so much:-) Anyways,Saint Vincent,you brought up an interesting question in my mind..Who gets to decide,what is normal??And I guess my original question,Could it be, that people who find themselves drinking within the norms of their socio-economic conditions on tsm,are actually cured?? Isn't that the point ?? could it be that we are so conditioned in the U.S,due to temperence,prohibition,war on drugs,MADD,DWI laws,AA,Courts,Rehabs,etc.,as to believe abstinence only is the cure for alcohol addiction??My thought is this..Should one beat himself up if he/she is drinking within or less than the norm of ones peers? and by peers ,I mean people who are also in the same economic situation as oneself...This is just a random thought brought on by reading peoples struggles..As an Irishman in the middle of a divorce durring one of the worst economic crisises in history,selling my home,crazy new girlfriend,four kids,Aa nuts knocking at my door and a night shift worker to boot..I am starting to wonder what are acceptable limits...Oh well,These are just some random thoughts...Hey,I'm a Catholic,who is st.Vincent? hahaha...Goodman

Sinclair used abstinence or a reduction in drinking to moderate or safe levels as his criteria for being "cured". What is considered moderate or safe varies somewhat from one culture to the next. I posted a link to a chart of safe drinking levels for various countries on another thread. If my circle of friends all drink 70 drinks per week and I drink 42 drinks per week I wouldn't consider myself cured because that level of alcohol is harmful to the body so I would not fit the moderate or safe criteria. In a strange way AA is partially correct in promoting an abstinence only approach because not many of it's members are capable of drinking moderately. If someone could moderate they would and they wouldn't be in AA. People who voluntarily find themselves in their first AA meeting are desperate and looking for help. They are vulnerable. Let's face it they've tried everything else first before they ended up in that church basement. The interesting thing about discussing what are acceptable limits for alcohol is that if TSM works it won't really matter to you anymore because alcohol will just not be that important to you anymore and you will be drinking below any objective standard for safe or moderate (other than AA's which is zero). By the way Saint Vincent was the patron saint of wine growers. I am also Irish Catholic with kids going through a divorce so I feel some of your pain and Catholic guilt.

I agree. It's one of the frustrations of seeing the AA dogma accepted as gospel, or as somehow the default, ideal condition. My brain has been rewired and some previous assumptions simply Do Not Compute any longer.

Someone who is addicted to alcohol, but not currently drinking, is a different kettle of fish from someone who is not addicted to alcohol. Drinking now feels like almost any other hobby I used to organize my life around, but later gave up when I found something more interesting to do.

Hey Plain vanilla and St.Vincent..Thanks..It is so hard to even imagine, at this point, what a world without alcohol thoughts would be like..But hearing about it from people who are there,really inspires me to keep at this thing..Have a good night..Goodman

Plain Vanilla, thanks for stopping by the board and sharing what life looks like on the other side. I've gotten glimpses of that indifference to alcohol that you described so well. How much better life will be when alcohol is not relevant anymore. Thanks for continuing to post.