Another thought I had regarding Eskapa's lack of presence on this board:

Several of us have ordered Nal from other countries and have instructed each other how to do so, without a prescription, and without being under a medical doctor's supervision. This, I believe is illegal? and could be viewed as dangerous despite Nal's innocuous nature. Although Dr. Eskapa has not recommended taking Naltrexone without talking to a Medical doctor first, it very well may be in his, and our, best interest to distance himself from this activity.

I don't know much about the FDA or medical community, but I do clearly see a desire to reject this new line of thinking we call extinction as a mainstream treatment. We need Eskapa and Sinclair to maintain their legitimacy in the medical world in order for TSM to continue to grow. Any association with people who sometimes encourage each other to obtain a drug, albeit a non-controlled substance, illegally, could jeopardize these men's, and TSM's, reputations.

in other words: If the western medical community sees is not profiting at all from this, it will piss them off, and we all know how powerful the drug companies are. The more I have thought about this, the more I can understand why Eskapa has kept a healthy distance from the board. It could be for the better of TSM and all of us. The guy gave us the book, that's a huge contribution whether we agree with everything in the book or not. I think he knows what he's doing

I sent this link to fellow AA's and so far I have had only 2 replies. I know many of them don't deal much with email, so I'm not surprised, but more responses may come later.

So far, one infers from the last paragraph of the article: if AA works for you, don't change. Can't really argue there.

The 2nd reply was from my ex-sponsor:


I hope this quote is OK, as I am not mentioning my ex-sponsor's name and she is unlikely to look up this forum. I'm guessing this will be the trend of conservative AA's--they believe the program works for them, so why look anywhere else? Moreover, drug company scientists are out for money, and the drug only treats symptoms and not the "real cause" of alcoholism.

Whatever, TSM actually cures the alcoholism, "may not work" is bogus because AA doesn't work for the vast majority. and designed to extinguish the sense of relief is a wonderful thing. why not want to do that and find other ways to find relief? ad for me, AA didn't provide any relief from cravings, not drinking was Waay harder for me. and I worked it hard. the whole symptom thing is straight from the book. a classic robotic pre-programmed response.

I had a wonderful labor day weekend with friends having a few beers and playing games and cooking out etc. If I were in AA I would've been in meetings every day fighting cravings and drinking coffee examining a bunch of magnified character flaws which were caused by my drinking, not the other way around. the old idea that drinking is caused by character flaws is going out the window, We don't drink to excess because we are bad people who are "spiritually bankrupt" total brainwashing going on there.

actual science is finding new ways to deal with this chemical problem. the religious ways are antiquated at this point

Hi Adrienne,

Thanks for sharing that quote, it shows what we are up against in with "mainstream" treatment. I also can't argue with the idea that if AA is working for someone, why change. BUT, if it is not, TSM is an alternative with so much promise for many of us!

I have to say, the response from your sponsor pisses me off (at her, not you!!) Again, it assumes there is something deeply wrong with us of we happen to get addicted to alcohol. I think that is BS. I spent a lot of time with therapists and self help books, trying to find the root causes of my problems with alcohol. All that served to do is make me dredge up childhood dramas that really don't have anything to do with why I drink too much.

Here's why I drink too much. My whole family and social group drank from an early age. It was normal to have alcohol every day, and expected that you would drink to oblivion much of the time. My family very likely has a genetic predisposition to getting addicted to and abusing alcohol, as I have seen it across generations. Reinforce that predisposition with many years of partying (high school through college through a professional career that involved full-time travel with other people who drank a lot), and here I am. No deep pschological disorder, no need for a moral inventory and apologizing to anyone and everyone who maybe saw me get too drunk along the way ..... just a simple, physiolgical addiction to alchohol.

Ugh .... I think that is why I always steered clear of AA, and why this approach makes so much more sense to me. To use paraphrase a comment from Joe12pack, why get bitch-slapped by Bill W and his cult when moral failing has NOTHING to do with it!

Typical AA response. If AA doesn't work you aren't being honest. If you are able to moderate or abstain without AA you are either a dry drunk or weren't really a drunk. This kind of circular logic is exhausting. The worst (and most dangerous) kind of idiot is the one who doesn't know they don't know. Adrienne I think it was brave of you to try and share this information but you may as well try to explain robotics to your dog. It won't sink in.

Most mammals can become alcoholics. (Not all. For instance, cats cannot). Some rats have been bred to have a genetic predisposition toward alcoholism, so that research can be performed. What, in AA's dogma, is this rat's character flaw. How will the rat embrace Jesus as his personal savior? How will the rat perform step 4? How will the rat proselytize to other rats of his ilk in step 12?

There is no logical coherent answer that you can get from these zealots. Rats are addicted in the same way humans are addicted. They are cured the same way humans are cured. It's a medical cure for a medical problem.

BTW, I used "Jesus" above instead of "higher power", because around here if you are not a Christian AA zealot, you are SOL. On the other hand, bringing a Bible to an AA meeting is a no-no too. I was chastised for that faux pas. We wouldn't want Bible facts to conflict with the divine word of Bill W.

Bob

I replied to my ex-sponsor by asking her what she thought alcoholism was and what are its causes, and wouldn't it be a good thing to treat the "symptoms" so one can start working on the "causes" sooner? Apparently she took it as an attack on AA. She was sending an email to [i]her[i] sponsor but accidentally hit "reply" instead of "forward" so I got her reaction by mistake.

She immediately followed up with an apology for the mistake and allowed that she probably got angry at me because of her own problems, but I'm beginning to feel like a liberal at a Tea Party rally (I know she would hate that comparison).

I sent the link to AAers in my list asking for an opinion but without comment. Now I'm trying to work on a reply to tell her I did not mean it as an attack on AA (the article did not attack AA), but maybe as a suggestion for help for someone who has relapsed. I don't want to upset her more by pointing out flaws in her response.

Ouch. I am sorry your sponsor wasn't able to support you with what you are doing. I am glad she was able to acknowledge that her reaction was about her - not you. Having spent most of my adult life (18-42) in the rooms of AA, I did learn that my reactions to what other people say or do have much more to do with me than what they are saying and doing. For that, I need to be responsible. Good experience and life lessons. I respect and value much of the good stuff I picked up in AA.

Unfortunately, they still haven't helped me arrest my alcoholism which I sincerely believe is biologically based.

No amount of honesty, spirituality, helping others, service work, house cleaning and amends - which I worked to the best of my ability for many, many, many years - gave me the reprieve I needed for permanent long-term sobriety. The intensity of my cravings would sneak in and catch me yet again. Each time more devastating than the last with increasingly worse consequences. No amount of self-honesty has corrected the problem I developed when alcohol took over in my teens. I am addicted to alcohol.

If someone gets upset that I am trying to do the right thing for myself and my family - that truly is their issue. I wouldn't get upset that someone in AA doesn't understand or respect your decision. Personally, I haven't tried to discuss my decision with many AA friends. I'm not sure they would be able to look beyond their own views to understand what I believe is the best thing for me. My sponsor was great but she is super special. Even she seemed a bit sensitive discussing the issue. I don't blame her. It was a bit of a shock for me to read about. I am searching for a permanent solution to my alcoholism and I believe TSP can offer me that.

I have no problem entering into a spirited discussion but I figure I'll be in a better position to do that when I am cured

Hang tight. FYI - I'm out in the western suburbs. I'm loving the cooler fall weather!! BTDT

Adrienne, I admire your willingness to share this with the recovery world, but be careful. Don't let these AA folks bum you out. I have been banned from forums and laughed at and it got me so pissed off that I wasted a lot of energy. sometimes I still do. but hey, the less I drink, the less i get sucked into that negativity! I did tell my AA buds about this at first(had to tell them something anyway as I'm not the type to just hide from friends) and they scoffed. 6 months later i've made huge progress and I've let up on always telling people about it. the thing is: now they are coming to me and asking. I am finding that when they've seen it work for me they will actually listen a little, whereas at first they just wanted to spew AAisms and tell me it's wrong and there will never be a "cure" etc. it's as if some of them didn't want it to work! My last sponsor from AA is about to start TSM! sometimes leaving it alone and letting it rest for a while helps. then you can come back with first hand proof that can't be refuted! bottom line is they will NEVER accept this before seeing it work on someone they are close to, and even then, after they are convinced it works, most will probably call you a dry drunk. but what the hell, this reminds me..i better go stir up some **** on a recovery forum. peace out! tell the world

After my former sponsor's reaction, I'm not going to pursue the issue with any other AA person I know. I will just fall back to listening and sympathizing with their problems. After all, if they are not drinking and are talking about other problems, listening does help them. It's just that I feel I am being more helpful to them (they tell me so) than they are to me, and other than wanting to stop dangerous drinking, few of them share my interests or are available outside meetings.

Also, I've been lying--I keep telling my ex-sponsor that I am not drinking and only concerned about other members who have relapsed. She might sense this, but from her apology she seems very sensitive about her own sobriety. I'm still thinking about how to respond to her.

Let me know if this needs to go to a new thread.

Adrienne