Actually after thinking about I think we have the wrong attitude about AA. instead of pointing out the negative things in AA we should be thankful that it's been there for our fellow drunks. I should be thankful that AA was the first part of my journey and indirectly it led me here. We should all try to be more tolerant of other methods, including AA. after all, they are really not telling us not to do Sinclair I'm lying I think AA sucks they are just believing in their own higher power I think they are full of s hit and they are not brainwashed but brain dead. a.A. provides a fellowship for millions and Bill Wilson was out to help his fellow man and bang all the vulnerable new women in the program. he was just a humble, simple man who appeared on the cover of Time magazine to tout his anonymous cult. But who am I to criticize? Who among us hasn't deitified themselves as the leader of a religion and told people f they don't do it our way that they are "incapable of being honest" ? Fuc k AA and the horse it rode in on.

Hey, I tried, but the paragraph derailed itself

Tell us how you really feel, joe.

Yeah that "incapable of being honest" part is pretty damned convenient isn't it?

Joe ,
I've noticed you've done fine spirited things regarding AA and wish to tell them how good tsm
is . I'd say be a bit careful there and C.Y.A . frankly I'd stay well clear of them not only til you feel cured but sail on from there a good say, half a year to get perspective .
You did a good bit of time in AA and I've noted you feel very ambiguous toward them apreciating them somewhat yet seeing their daft side . put simply you may have a love hate relationship with them . When I was at RR ( rational Recovery) they made a good deal
about Recovery Group Disorders and indeed we saw people who though they'd quit alcohol
kept feeling a need to go back to AA and often a need to challenge them . ( Is this part of the addiction ?? / helplessness idea they sewed so firmly in us ?? )
It really is not healthy to hang around with them and best to cut off .
My last meeting ended in a violent row me against them all and I had no tsm then .
I felt really low and lonely leaving the group . they said bad thiing s would happen to me ...
( Isn't this tantamount to leaving a satanist bunch !!? similar ? )
Tsm and other stuff exists if people take themselves in hand they 'll start searching alternatives nobody needs to see AA as the only place in town nowadays .

[quote="Elfern"]
( Isn't this tantamount to leaving a satanist bunch !!? similar ? )

AA meets all the requirements of being a cult, in that it was founded by a charismatic individual and has a strict set of rules, with members who are ostracized when they break them. There seems to be little or no scientific evidence to back up anything the organization believes, and of course its success rate is abysmal - just a couple of reasons why I'm so glad I found this group. Folks have been nothing but supportive here, because we're all united in the same goal. The difference is, we know there's a valid scientific explanation for why we drink to excess, and it has nothing to do with a lack of willpower or some character flaw. I hope TSM eventually goes mainstream, because there are millions of people who could benefit.

Hey Elfern, I *think* you were responding to my comments about AA rather than Joe’s? Anyway - what you said definitely applies to me: I *do* have (somewhat) of a love/hate relationship with AA, although it’s 2% “love” and 98% “hate.” That is, I have some empathy for AA members, but I postively hate the brainwashing, the Big Book, and the endless bullshit.

Previously I wrote that for brief stretches of time AA *did* help me stay sober, and that it was probably better for me than doing absolutely nothing… But really, that's sort of like saying that it's better for a starving person to eat toxic garbage than to eat nothing at all.

You said these days nobody needs to see AA as the only option. I agree with that to some extent, especially now with widespread access to the internet. But it still seems to me that the majority of people needing help are steered towards (or forced into) AA or some other 12-step program.

After giving it some thought, I also think you’re absolutely right that my desire to go to AA (with the intent to challenge it) is not healthy (and it also wouldn't be effective). I just wish I knew some sane, healthy ways to fight the 12-step Zietgiest.

You mentioned “recovery group disorders.” I had not not heard of that term before, but it’s encouraging to know that groups like RR are educating people about it. It’s also interesting to me that my desire to go back to AA could be due to the residual effects of the brainwashing I got there to begin with! Although I sort of hate to admit that a kind of mental disorder was motivating me, I have to admit: that really does ring true to me now.

Years after my last departure from AA (and before finding TSM), I asked my doctor for a prescription for Antibuse. He declined and said “You’re an alcoholic; you need to go to AA.” Months later I asked him for a Naltrexone script, and he gave me one - a point in his favor for sure - but the fact that AA was his first “prescription” is still appalling to me, as is the fact that *I* had to find out about Naltrexone on my own and ask him for it.

I also suspect that it was the residual effects of AA-brainwashing that prevented me from seeking other solutions for a very long time- even years after I left AA. The idea of powerlessness,” and the belief that there was no other way out really stuck with me. It now seems so strange that I did not even try to find another solution for so many years. Also, when I first saw The Sinclair Method book I totally assumed it was a scam. In fact, the only reason I ordered the book was to appease my husband. I was sure it would NOT work, but I figured it would at least get him off my back for a while.

I have now totally dropped the idea of going to AA meetings to speak up about TSM. You’re right – it would be unhealthy to even go there, and it would also be totally futile. Maybe I will find some other (sane) way to help fight the AA “Borg” machine. I definitely want our courts to stop mandating 12 step attendance to people with substance abuse problems. (Maybe donating to the ACLU would help...).

Anyway, thanks for your post Elfern – even though you wrote it to “Joe” – I most definitely benefited from it! : )

no, it was written to me. I thought my post was funny when I wrote it, and I have some love/hate with AA going on for sure. It is abhorrent to me that they reject any new developments in the recovery field and insist on keeping their monopoly. case in point..I was driving along listening to a minor league baseball game fri. night leaving town. The marketing director for the local treatment center where I went years ago was hanging in the booth talking to the announcer between pitches. he mentioned that they are involved with that reality show "intervention" and he offered his opinions about lindsay lohan for half an inning! Someone he doesn't even know! What about anonymity? what about letting people have their dignity while they recover? I always thought it was dead wrong to film interventions for public display, on the grounds that it compromises the recovery itself for profit, entertainment, and product placement for treatment centers. turns out my rehab....a very renowned rehab....is in bed with that show! I also heard an AA commercial on the radio a while back during a ballgame of the same team. AA commercial? that phrase alone breaks about 3 of AA's "traditions" they're really starting to break their own rules as a business. maybe they are upping the ante because they are realizing they are no longer the only game in town. No, it's not really the people one on one that bother me, I made some friends there and still have them, albeit at a safe distance. it's the organization itself and the mob mentality that happens when they get into the committees and such. crazy ****!

....anyway my last sponsor before I quit AA for good contacted me about trying TSM tonight. hope it works for him. great guy. how apprapos is that when I was just doing a little good ol fashioned AA bashing.

"AA thinks that when an alcoholic rat is re-introduced to alcohol, it drinks more than it did before because it suffers from immorality and an inability to be truthful with itself. Now that's insanity."
-Minneapolisnick

RESPECT!

Yes it was meant for Joe but glad it helped Shelly .
Anyways re "Recovery Group Disorder " it sounds fancy but its all very uinderstandable .
When I was in the RR forum we saw quite bad cases there was one old guy who'd done AA
for more than 30 years and come to the conclusion he was recovered and decided he'd never drink again . Then his struggle became trying to break his addiction to the group . He went so far he made a bonfire of AA lit and the big book in the park and chucked the holy bible on too ( I wouldn't go that far !!). But occaisionally he sucumbed and went to a meeting .He felt so lonely . Its really quite frightening if people ghetto themselves in like that . We need contact with all manner of people and to lead a life with other centres of interest and not see ourselves so primarily as an alcoholic and apart from " normies " . reading Eskarpa's book shows the long and the short of it is a bio chemical fault .And as we see here when people get free of the addiction they naturally go out to mix with normies ;
Last year RR was brought up here and it was felt that what was reallly objectionable about them was they hold the individual entirely and willfully responsable for all the mess alcohol has caused and they should simply decide to pack it in . Once again in the light of tsm we saw how wrong this is ,, and that alcoholics can be victims of totally implacable forces .Your days will never be bright if go around thinking you're a despicable degenerate . Despite that
being so wrong , RR 's angle on AA I fully go along with still .
Court mandating to AA was something I believe they helped people with . Is this really such a big thing in the US , I'd have thought its unconstitutional bias would make it hard to practice
or easy to fight ?? It'd certainly never happen here or even in UK .
IF shelly or anyone really feels they suffer a recovery group disorder and have difficulty keeping away from AA one thing you could consider is taking out a one month subscription
to the RR forum and discuss the problem . If tsm serves you well it'd be better not to say how you deal with your alcohol problem unless you're prepared to fight that corner too .
Finally although avoiding AA is good if you want to kick the ever recovering persona , maintaining contact with an individual outside the group sounds a very good thing
if ever they really could send someone who could benefit from tsm and . But that 's a wise individual indeed .

I once had a hamster who was a compulsive liar, so I never gave him any alcohol just to be on the safe side.