Hi Everybody –

I just started Nal and TSM about 9 days ago, and I’m already getting some very encouraging results! I’ve been alcohol-dependent for over 20 years (mostly beer). I normally drank every single day, usually starting by noon, and I wouldn’t stop until I passed out. Occasionally I was able to achieve "white-knuckle” abstinence on my own for a week or two.

I did have some “success” in AA a number of times. While in AA, I was able to abstain for a few 3-month stints, and once for 9 months - but there were so many aspects to AA that I absolutely hated, and I always ended up feeling burned-out and depressed.

I think the only reason AA helped (me) was due to the change in routine, the distraction inherent in all the "steps" and meetings, and some of the group support; But all of that stuff combined seemed to merely help me "white-knuckle it" longer than I could on my own.

How ironic it is that so many AA-people regard Nal as some kind of absurd "band-aid cure" that doesn't address the "real" problem. To me it seems that just the opposite is true: AA is a "band-aid cure", Nal/TSM addresses the real problem!!!

A few benefits that I did glean from AA: 1) I actually learned a few basic, helpful things there. 2) I met a few nice people. 3) It helped me get thru a few really hard times. (sometimes a band-aid can be better than nothing I guess

But even though it sometimes helped for brief stretches, it never lasted because I just couldn't stand it. There was so much in AA that I just could not believe, and skepticism is simply not tolerated there (in spite of lots of lip service to the contrary). The upshot was that I always ended up feeling like a fake, smiling, slogan-spouting zombie. Boredom, exasperation, and depression were always the inevitable side effects of AA for me.

With TSM, I think I now have a *real* shot at beating the compulsion to drink. The degree of ignorance that still exists out there about Nal and TSM really bothers me. Maybe one of these days I’ll muster up enough courage to go back to an AA meeting and speak up about this amazing drug. It's such a shame that so many have never heard of it, and that many who have are so grossly misinformed.

I'm glad you escaped AA! They have the same success rate (5%) as self-remission (just quitting on your own with no assistance). Oddly, or maybe not so oddly, I know two successful AA zealots and two people who went from full-blown alcoholism to light or non-drinking on by themselves (self-remission).

If you do attempt to muster up the courage to go to an AA meeting with the real TSM cure, be prepared to be escorted out. It happened to me. They were relatively civil about it. I'm glad they didn't get violent.

Bob

I know how you feel. When I was 16ish I got dumped in AA because I was a reblious teenager and my mother, a single parent, had no idea what to do with me. The rehab thing was the rage in the early mid 80's. It was funny the doctor tols my mother I had cocaine and thc in my bloodwork..I had done neither at that point. Anyways off to the 30 day vaction I go. Can you say insurance fraud..lol. Anyways AA obviously was a big thing and off to AA I went. I stayed there and "sober" till about 25ish.

After I finished college and began working and chasing the almight dollar and the american dream I felt AA was holding me back. Plain and simple it is a cult for the most part. Give up all your old friends and hang with no one but "program"people. If you don't you will surely drink. I couldn't take it any longer and away from the program I went and yep started drinking. I am now 42 and It got bad I found TSM and all is great now.

When I decided last Nov I need to do something about my drinking AA was the last place I would go. While I was there I would say gretaer than 50% kept going and coming back. The rooms are mostly filled with very needy and lonely people. Why cant a person get their life together on their own? why is that impossible without the group? Hell half the group doesnt acheive long term results ie sobriety based on their definition of it. I have a huge problem with this "group" thing. I mean no man or woman is an island unto themselves but for the most part we are 100% responsible for our own actions and the choices we make. If I choose to be a drunk I must suffer the consequences..period. Addiction, yep I was, but I chose to do something about it. I found TSM ordered the pills the book and this forum and went about putting my life back together. Not so simple at the time but with booze at bay it fell into place.

The god thing in AA to me is VERY weird the way they go about it all. I am catholic..lol a renagade one for sure like theres a thin line between saturday night and sunday morning..but I beleive in God. I don't discuss nor would ever push my beleifs on anyone. I don't think everyone has to beleive in God or something to get straightened up. They shove it down your throat. Oh and the holy grail of AA the "spritual awakening" What the heck is that? Anyone with sobriety long term claims they have had it. We can't have it unless we are part of the group? The AA group?

The steps they live by if you ever read them are basically just a good moral compass for the most part. Maybe I'm stupid but most of the people I have chosen to call friends and aquaintences etc have a good moral compass...like to think I do also. I could not stand sitting there night after night talking about the "steps"..it became rediculous to me...I began thinking are you people so F***ed up you have to have 12 steps to live right and talk about it incessantly? The other problem I had BIG TIME and I seriously don't want to sound like a snob etc was the majority of the people were degenrates that in real life I would have no part of. I have zero experience with jail drugs like coke herion etc. It seemed to me as a whole their were a lot of low life type people in those rooms. Granted there were some "normal" people but they were not the majority. I met a lot of people with some glowing mental problems for sure. I almost felt like ok well great folks you don't drink anymore now get some serious mental help. The AA'er response would be I chose the wrong groups...well at the time I went to meetings all over the DC metro suburbs..maryland Virginia and DC they were all the same.

The sponsor thing..get a sponsor. Someone who has more sobriety than you and they will tell you how and help you live. What the F**K. Ok I have a problem with alcohol so let me find someone else who had a problem..ie meaning they are or was as screwed as me and they will help me? NOT..yeah they might know about being a drunk but that classifies them as an authority to help beat it? Cause they did for a few years? I know alot of people who were sober in AA 2 or 3 years and went back out as they call it. Because a person is "sober" for a period of time I am sorry but that does not make that person god to me or even put on a petal stool. There is alot more to life than not drinking. Not downplaying quitting etc..but there is still a lot more to a healthy productive life. I have mentors in life..I am sure we all do. Meaning people we look up to, seek guidance, try to emulate etc...but at least with mine there was and is a hell of a lot more than not drinking.

The group thing to me is nuts..no one will sell me on it not being a cult. I made friends for ten years there. The ones I am still close to all left the "program". Some drink some don't some are social drinkers. The ones I still talk to in the program are still weird. I would say hey lets get together and do this or that and it was always ..hmm well is there going to be drinking? Buddy we are going water skiing - I used to ski competitvely so no booze on my boat - and for the most part would never do a thing unless it was a group of AA'ers. Fine by me to each his own I guess. They CAN'T beleive I got my **** straight with a pill. They are dumbfounded I spent $350.00 or so on some pills a book and this forum and got my act together. They all say it won't last..oh ok. But their sobriety will as long as they remain in the cult?

Other thing that gets me..I posted some, I know Loop and some others have also on other forums and we were all shot down in flames and disregarded as a bunch of drunks who still want to drink. No magic pill, no easy way etc. Well the 11th or 12th step I can't remember which talks about carrying the message to the still suffereing alcoholic. Well why the hell would they, the so called tolerant group, dismiss a pill they have no knowledge of. I loved reading the arguments there about it doesn't work no pill can cure this blah blah blah BY PEOPLE WHO NEVER TOOK IT AND HAD NO INFORMATION. Point is why wouldn't they suggest this to a fellow AA'er who constantly relapses? It might save their life..but I guess they wouldn't need the cult then and that might weaken membership which means they don't have as many to listen to their BS. Their way is the ONLY way. I feel bad for those who beleive that horesh**t and continue relapsing.

The character defect peice...were drunks we have character defects? not..sorry don't buy it. Who doesnt have some issues? The ones I met sorry to say as whole have enough character defects sober I wanted no part of them after 10 years not drinking..lol i never started yet. I don't know my beleif is if you have a problem ok well fix it. Bottom line I think it's soley up to me to take care of my problems alone. I made them alone I need to address them and fix by myself for the most part. Again not possible without the group.


Sorry for my rant and AA bash..not a fan. Yes I know it's helped people..I have an uncle that I love dearly sober 30 something years AA style..lol he supports me with this pill but is like "well the verdict is still out" But then again he quit going to meetings like 15 years ago. I will shut up now

Bob wrote:
I'm glad you escaped AA! ...
If you do attempt to muster up the courage to go to an AA meeting with the real TSM cure, be prepared to be escorted out. It happened to me... Bob

Hey thanks Bob!
I can't believe they escorted you out!!! On second thought, I guess that really should not surprise mel...
hmm... Okay well maybe I'll just skip that particular part of my evil plan Thanks for the heads up!

Hi Crown86 -
Its good to know that someone who went in at age 16 "escaped" !!! Seriously... I always felt uncomfortable and worried about really young people being exposed to AA when I was there. It's comforting to me to have evidence that even very early exposure can be overcome!

I liked your comments about AA's "holy grail" of spiritual awakening, and the about the ridiculous fiction that "character defects" are being supernaturally removed from the so-called "spiritually awake".

About AA being a cult: Since 12-step programs are now so widely practiced and accepted, I think "religion" might be a more accurate term? I'm not sure though that I even understand the difference between "cult" and "religion", except in terms of the number of people who subscribe??? If "brainwashing" is the main criteria for "cult" - I agree that AA definitely falls into that category!! However, I can't help but remember how "brainwashed" I was by my own Baptist upbringing. I don't mean to be sarcastic at all. I probably just need to learn more about the difference between "cult" and "religion"...

I also agree that it's absurd for AA people to refuse to even consider or suggest Naltrexone. Preserving the dogma is apparently way more important than "helping another alcoholic." I think though that in their minds, preserving the dogma IS the only way to "help". I know they're wrong about that, and you obviously know it too. I guess I'm just saying that even though they're dead-wrong, I do think that most of them are at least well-intentioned. I'd still rather ram a stick in my eye than go listen to them ever again, but for what it's worth, I do think that most of them sincerely mean well.

I totally understand the "AA-rant" impulse!!! It is just so f-d up in so many ways, and I too was exposed to it for so long... I just can't stop myself from ranting about it from time to time--- especially now that I've found something that *really* seems to be working for me (as opposed to attending endless meetings where I'm bombarded with testimony about how it "works" --- when it did not work for me --- and being told over and over that if it wasn't working it was my fault). AA's philosophy is just so ridiculous, it's hard not to rant about it --- especially when it seems like the whole world has embraced its absurd "solution" as a scientific fact.

Thanks for your thoughtful "rant" , Crown86 And thanks for reading mine. I enjoyed it
sincerely,
Shelly64

I believe it. And it makes sense. AA is sure not my preferred route. But some people claim to be helped by them, and that can't be a bad thing. From THEIR perspective, the idea of being able to just drink socially is a dangerous bit of denial. One thing I agree with AA on is that if TSM turns out not to work for me, there is only ONE way for me to avoid the affects of alcohol and that is to not drink at all. So I can see how from their point of view, coming to AA to basically discredit it and spread what they consider dangerous misinformation would not be deemed helpful to their members.

Unfortunately, I think it is going to take more time, more clinical trials, more articles in journals before this gets out.

Nice topic (I think we've broached this one A few times).

I agree with most comments pro and con for AA.

I think a fellowship does have its benefits, however, and here is my little story and it goes to the white knuckle description.

I was sober 4.5 years with AA. Another year in and out. The thing that I knew would happen, happened. As many of you know I work nightclubs and weddings. Constantly surrounded by alcohol. It was just a matter of time before I would accidentally get a drink even not ordering one.

One time I spit it out (2 months in to that 4.5 years). Fast forward 4.5 years and being a good boy, I ordered my club soda lemon and lime and it came back gin and tonic. Talk about endorphin rush. I felt like a little kid having a drink for the first time.

Mind you, my cravings were very low or non existent at this time, BUT because AA teaches us the all or nothing routine, over a period of 6 months, I started to drink alcoholically again. First, I bet, had they not planted that all or nothing seed in my brain, maybe I could have made a conscious effort to not drink alcoholically although in fairness probably not.....but had I had some NAL, I bet my relapse would have been a blip on the radar. Now coming on my one year anniversary TSM, I'm a little disappointed BUT NAL has helped and I do drink less. I just seem to have plateaued at 6-8 drinks a day. It was nice to see Virginia's and Crowns progress and hope to be an Old Timer (TSM anyways) that can give hope to the newbies and exasperated 1 year folk. My best, Jim

These days, the thing that burns me up about A.A. and the recovery community (including the medical community) in general is the fact that they accept A.A. as the only solution under the sun. I think TSM is being squelched because there is no money in it. If there were a way for TSM to support the juggernaut rehab industry TSM would have a better chance at going mainstream. but a generic pill and a 10 dollar book is all you need with this. then again, rehab centers basically charge you 30 grand for a Big Book, so I'm sure they could find a way to exploit TSM. That said, I think some folks really need some time away to realize how bad their problems are and how much better life would be without Al or without excessive drinking, rambling.

also they say no army can stop an idea whose time has come. well, maybe no army can, but a religion can suppress ideas and screw things up for thousands of years. that's what's happening here. these guys are brainwashed and they have modern medicine eating from their hands. more to come

Bob, you've got some serious cojones my friend! I would never attempt such a thing. for one thing because I know they wouldn't accept the message, but mostly because I would be afraid to do that. those people are nuts and as a group they won't listen to reason.

I do have friends who are still in the program, and they know what I'm doing. one guy seems more open minded than most. but they ALL scoffed at first. I'm sure my old sponsor has brought me up in the meeting I used to go to (without using my name, but with everybody knowing damn well he's talking about me, that's how they roll, they have ways of rationalizing when they "take someone else's inventory" often they simply begin the sentence with "Not to take someone else's inventory, but..") and I'm sure thay all had a good laugh.

Whatever, if this TSM thing keeps progressing like it has for me, I have a strategy: I'm going to tell my old sponsor and AA friends that if they have any hopeless chronic relapsers, let me talk to them about TSM. Mabe they'll try it. If they're drinking anyway why not?
interesting thing happened the other day I'm still being disctret about TSM online, but I posted on Facebook "TSM is working, by golly it's working" when I was excited about AF days this week. A couple hours later I got a random call from my old sponsor whom I told all about TSM when I started. he left a message saying he was just seeing how I was doing etc. I haven't called him back yet. We play phone tag every couple of weeks or so. I realize that telling him about my 3 af days this week may not impress him so much, as he hasn't drank at all for 6 years. for someone who's worked so hard to maintain total abstinence, I can see how it's be hard to give TSM the credit it deserves. I have to be understanding of that. As my progress continues, I'll reach out to him more and offer to help relapsers, but I want to be careful not to render all his hard work on himself, and with me, useless. This guy helped me through some really bad times and is a true friend. I won't ever forget that. I think as time goes by, he'll accept it.

Yes, some people are helped by it, and absolutely that is a good thing. It’s just a shame that AA can’t be as objective and rational as you are. It could have saved me so much misery if AA's message was something like: “The 12 steps way is our preferred route and we think it's the best, but some alcoholics claim to be cured by Naltrexone, and if that’s true it can’t be a bad thing.”

I, like you, can understand AA's fear of something like TSM. As an AA member there were times I myself declared that any non-AA route was risky, and that any drug-therapy route was deadly dangerous. I was sincere and I meant well – I just didn’t know what the hell I was talking about! I had never tried Naltrexone. In fact, I had never tried anything except white-knuckling it alone or recovery (attempts) via AA. But even though I had never tried any other way, in AA I was brainwashed into accepting that AA's solution was the only real answer for any true alcoholic. And every time I relapsed I thought it was my fault. Eventually, I not only totally believed that I was “powerless” - I also “came to believe” that I was utterly hopeless.

AA's intentions might be sincere and good, but their best intentions helped pave the road to hell for me, by totally convincing me that it was AA’s way or NO WAY at all. My desire to speak up about TSM to AA is not rooted in the desire to discredit their entire program. But I would very much like to discredit their adamant stance against alternatives they know nothing about. Since AA constantly preaches “turning it over” to “God” it seems utterly absurd that they refuse to accept the possibility that “God” might provide more than one narrow way out of the misery of alcoholism. (I myself am no longer a believer, but I can at least admit to that possibility.)

As of this post, I've been using TSM for 1 month, and the results have been absolutely stunning for me. I no longer feel compelled to drink every day. Out of the last 11 days, I have had TEN alcohol-free days without even trying. Just as amazing to me is that when I *do* drink, I am able to STOP! (I no longer drink until I pass out, and more and more frequently I stop after 2 or 3 beers -simply because I don't want any more.) I realize I may still experience some spikes and difficulties, but in any case, I now have real hope.

It sickens me to think of how many other people there are who, just like me, leave AA convinced that all hope is gone. I understand AA's point of view, but part of that view desperately needs to change, and it totally could change without discrediting their whole program. All they would need to do is broaden their imaginations enough to admit that any all-powerful "God" would be capable of providing more than one narrow way. (Currently all they will admit to is that their "God" allows people to use more than one name for "Him".). But anyway, if AA would genuinely practice what they preach (turning everything over to their "God")- they would have no reason to be so fearful of other solutions, nor would they feel so compelled to defend every old scrap of stale AA dogma.