Joe -- I'm glad you have the patience to post and put up with the guff you're going to get. It's an important way to spread the word. If just a few see your posts it will be progress. That forum doesn't appear to be moderated with the iron fist, the way soberecovery is.

I'm always curious when I see a site like this. The "about" page describes them as a smoking cessation group. The site is loaded with ads to treatment center info. And, you're never far from a button to get info on how to place an ad on the site. Maybe the site owners realized there is ad $ to be made from the rehab industry.

Keep us updated on how things go over there.

Great post over there Joe. I was getting ready to become a member and add something, but there was nothing that needed to be added to your summary and excellent response.

I'll definitely need your help once people start replying. I am sure there will be some who want to put us down. I drank 2 beers last night and the night before. how could I not be excited!!!!! lovin it. I'm kicked up in the honeymoon suite like a mofo baby

I have been through it all. Talk therapy, behavioral therapy, detox, hospitalization, AA, you name it. It's been three years. I work in a profession where I hear the worst of the worst. Therefore, hearing AA horror stories is nothing I want to hear outside of work. I am a Christian and believe in God, but believe also that God gives us the intelligence to help ourselves. And I find few believe there is any alternative other than AA, counseling, etc. I believe there is in fact other help. When I suggested this in an AA forum, I was met with very negative feedback. So I have distanced myself from AA. My psychologist is open to naltrexone, so I am thankful for that. This site has helped me understand what others' experiences have been. I am much more educated. My parents wanted to send me to a 12-step 30 day program at a cost of 10,000 because they saw info on Dr. Phil. I did talk to a representative. They were very nice and did not appear to be just wanting the money. I would never benefit from that program based on what I saw on their website. I also talked to another director of a program for professionals that promoted naltrexone and he was very nice also and did not appear to be just out there for the money. When I said I could never afford his program, he talked to me about his own experience and what helped him. I appreciated that. I encourage all who suffer to find what works for them and don't give up. There are numerous alternatives that have worked for many.

I'm reluctant to appear to be defending soberrecovery, and I know from my own experience that there are many small minded people there - including in posititions of power.

However, I think it is in our (i.e. those of us who believe in the sinclair method) best interests to think carefully about how we interact with them, and more importantly how we will be perceived.

As problem drinkers we know only too well the lies we tell ourselves and others when we are/were at our worst. They know this too. They are naturally, and probably correctly, suspicious of anything that sounds like self-delusion or 'drinkin-thinkin' as the knuckle-draggers and window-lickers would no doubt call it

From their frame of reference the risks of encouraging an alcholic to engage in drinking in the hope of a miracle cure are huge. They (albeit implicitly) ask, quite reasonably, how, if this method really works that it isn't more popular or widely known.

We need to be careful and honest. TSM hasn't worked for everyone (not that AA-based approaches have anything to boast about here either), and the results/conclusions in the medical literature are far from unanimous. Sinclair/Eskapa are, in my opinion, a little selective in the way they interpret the data in the literature - but I guess that is to be expected to some extent - and it is not, I should stress, to any extent that suggests misrepresentation etc of the results.

I also have a real problem with the (sub-)title of the Eskapa book - the "Drink yourself sober" - it is far too trite and ill-considered for my liking.

In summary - I woudn't try and oversell the message or the method. Stick to the hard results and science. Be unfailingly polite - even when it isn't reciprocated. Try to keep debates/arguments away from the personal and focus on the philosophical. If even one person reads a thread over there and is curious enough to succesfully try TSM as a result, then that is a hugely positive outcome. Conversely it would be a real shame if sheer weight of numbers of ignorant people there combined with well-intentioned but 'naive' advocacy from here stopped someone from even considering TSM when they might otherwise.

well I said nothing that wasn't true. I wasn't there to ruffle feathers. just trying to express my excitement for this method. they deleted any post I made about it. I just got banned from the forum a minute ago for commenting in the thread that crown started entitled "is this site selling something" in which he posted the advertising section of the forum and made some great points. they proceeded to call us names and run us down! the points those people made were of the idiotic brainwashed AA garden variety drunk ilk. What a bunch of friggin losers. they're jealous that they've wasted their lives in AA repeating slogans and guilt tripping themselves to death. it's like 1884 over there. an orwellian nightmare. a bunch of drones spewing out cliches without a single independent thought allowed. Glad I did it. someone needs to talk sense over there. if one person sees through that mess it will be worth the effort.

That site is fascinating in a train-wreck sort of way, but I think at this stage of the game, face-to-face live interaction and Google (and its ilk) are the way forward.

There was a book years ago about marketing and the adoption of new technologies called Crossing the Chasm - how do you get a new technology widely adopted, beyond the very few early adopters who will investigate anything and everything? How do products go from bleeding edge to mainstream?

One component is convincing the influencers - the thought leaders. In technology, people look to their geek friends to tell them what new products and technologies are real, and which are hype. In business, most decision-makers have a network of trusted peers, with whom they consult, either formally or informally.

Some shops wait until the big shops adopt something before they feel comfortable trusting that all the bugs have been worked out. Some small shops like the bleeding edge while others can't afford a single mistake. In almost every case, the majority followers look to the minority of leaders to scout the territory ahead, and make their decisions on what they report back, and what they themselves see. When most of the uncertainty has been wrung out, when it looks like everyone is getting on board or about to, only then will the vast mainstream jump on board. It's like me with clothing and fashion - I won't wear anything until its going OUT of style. Not to be an iconoclast - I'm just too chicken to be fashion-forward. By the time I'm comfortable wearing it, everyone's moved on

The Sinclair Method is in many ways already Old News - it's proven! But in the marketplace of addiction treatment, it's bleeding edge (or threatening!) In the population at large, it's alien and unfamiliar, and pretty suspicious-sounding. But as people encounter it in a variety of contexts ... in *trustworthy* contexts ... it will become less strange, less counter-intuitive. If their doctor recommends it, or someone they trust ... they will consider it.

Let the 12 steppers step their way into quaint history. A new reality is taking shape slowly. We can help by acknowledging it frankly, frequently, and as a simple fact of life.

One-for -- I didn't take your post to be defending soberecovery. But I want to reiterate from my earlier posts on this thread that their stated mission is a feeder for the rehab industry, so they'll get no respect from me. I posted the links earlier. On the other hand, the folks who post there are struggling to fight their alcohol addiction. A few of them have found their way here via thoughtful posts there by our members, before they were banned and their posts deleted.

I think joe is posting on a different site -- cyberecovery. Their mission is a little tougher to decipher, although they do not seem shy about taking ad $ from the rehab industry. Maybe TSM posts stand a better chance of surviving on that site -- although they do not seem to have near the readership of soberecovery.

Joe -- I thought your posts were level-headed, factual and respectful. As you've seen, you cannot always expect to see those qualities in reply posts. If you can withstand that, you surely will be getting the message out to someone in need of it. I hope you have the stomach to keep it up. I appreciate your efforts.

Joe: we cross-posted at the other site. I offered my two cents. We'll see what happens.

In my opinion we'd be much better off influencing our friends, neighbours, and family members. In my family, social circle and neighbourhood I'd guess 75% have a "problem" with booze - even though 74% of that number would deny this until their dying day. I will continue to tell them all about my success with The Sinclair Method and urge them to give it a try. With family members I've even offered to order, and pay for, naltrexone and give them a copy of the book. Once the story in our local "yuppie" magazine comes out I'm going to spread that around too.

I liken this fight - to get past the money makers involved in the addiction industry - to the fight Dr. Atkins had (read Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taub for the science) with his low-carb way of fighting obesity. Total put down of the science that was staring people in the face: to wit, when people eat from the so called food pyramid they get fatter and fatter - especially the poor who eat lots of cheap bread and pasta. There is a proven better way - but man the fight is horrendous - the power and influence against low-carb is unbelievable.

I know the controversy about eating will never be solved unless Big Food (bread, pasta, cookies), Big Agri (corn, corn, corn), and Big Pharma (tranks, anti-depressants, appetite suppressing drugs) change their tiny minds about what's good for people to eat - and this won't happen until real people, where the rubber hits the road, start demanding changes.

Same for The Sinclair Method, and Dr. A and his bac triations - never going to happen unless there is a ground swell of support - and a demand for change - isn't that happening in France where Dr. A's fans are starting to kick up a fuss? We can help, I think, by supporting the ground swell as we are doing starting with ourselves, then spreading to co-workers, family etc.

As well, once people are willing to spend big bucks to go to a clinic in their state/province that offers The Sinclair Method it will spread. We know we can do it ourselves but don't forget we live in an age when we leave most of our decisions to "experts" and millions of us are willing to pay them to help us. From what I see on the net there are only one or two places in North America where people can go for TSM or the other drug/amino acid treatments that actually do work. Once the demand grows for these the tide will turn.

So long and short of it is we're wasting our time with the AA crowd and their supporters. Let's just help the TSM and baclofen folks to spread the good word. This is not going to be fast - we're all so impatient because we know there are so many people out there who are literally dying because they are getting the wrong advice - but we simply must do what's most effective - one drunk at a time.