I am starting this thread because as we all know, Roy's book is great but it has some glaring errors for some of us...the first one being the amount of time it takes, the effortless part etc etc etc....

I went to AA for 5 years. Have a 4 year chip, sponsored some folk, spoke at speaker meetings, out of town meetings etc etc...there's a few of us here that did the whole trip.

My point is this...in those 5 years that I was a member, it wasn't all Nazi Hell....The conventions (I went to one but yes it was in my town at the time Newport, RI) were great, the fellowship, the friendships I made were wonderful and I thought at times life long.

We are in the trenches battling for our lives. I lost two friends, one VERY close, who I hung with every day to this disease. BUT, I ended up making it through that not drinking with the help of some great folks in the program. Now to my relapse....

I had a sponsor (Who I taught piano to) that when he saw me drinking, basically disowned me (tough love?). Broke my heart because I never, never gave him anything but love. You mean to tell me that you look at me like a s**tbag because I'm an alkie....thanks a lot. PISSED me off.

I gave that cat such great music insight, it was like gold. Not that I think I'm all that,..but you know what I mean? The intent was nothing but love and artistic integrity.

To my thread title....

I think we should start a virtual book, because with the information alone on this board, therein lies a big book. Title, Nalcoholics Anonymous (for drunks like us).

If you have read any of the literature associated with AA, some of it really rings true and is applicable (NO I'M NOT UNDERCOVER TRYING TO RECRUIT JUST THE OPPOSITE). For example, Living Sober has some interesting tid bits to remain sober and I intend to revisit some of it...

If we were to use it as a foundation for our own book and such I think it would give the necessary structure that some of us badly need (i.e. ME )

Lets take a look at the contents of the big book and you tell me if we couldn't write the very same thing but within the parameters of TSM.

1. The Doctors Opinion
2. SpringerRider, N101CS, Potato, Marbella, ~Q~, Happy4Once,
Netty, bob3d, Firebird, AJ, Elfern, Plainvanilla, Hapful, Minneapolisnick, BGH, Crown86, mclanet036's story
3. There is a Solution (that's a short chapter...take Nal one hour prior to drinking )

4. More about alcoholism

5. We agnostics

6. How it works (http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc. ... c&id=11132) if you haven't read this article its absolutely incredible....

7. Into action. (How to talk to your shrink or which pharmacy online is the best)

8. To wives hahahahahahahahahaha....only guys are drunks you women go off and sew...God can you believe that they haven't changed that yet...

9 The family afterward

10. to Employers

11. A vision for you

12. Jim Clark's (fill in your own name) nightmare.

And we obviously all have stories that could be appended to the end just like the book.

My point is,...yes the forum is almost just that, but when I need specific inspiration such as what Nick was recommending to me the other night, it would be nice to have a book or 24 hour a day book to look at for inspiration. With quotes from us, strategies, etc etc etc....It could be a PDF that could be downloaded. I hope this starts a spirited discussion. Much love to all, Jim

Nalcoholics Unanimous, The Real Book, (for drunks like us)

An interesting idea but a huge undertaking. I'm wondering if we can't get the same information by navigating through the site using search terms.

"the god squad" That made me laugh.

Here's a quote from an online conversation I had elsewhere with an atheist who thought that all spiritual (or religious) people were the same and were all anti-science:

His response was:My response:and the conversation went on from there.

You'll notice on this forum I don't talk religion or politics. This forum is for curing alcoholism and should focus on that. But I thought I'd throw in this conversation since Jim is talking about a book that would juxtapose itself with the AA Big Book which is filled with religion, sexism, and low tolerance for atheists and agnostics. Our proposed book should be free of these things and concentrate on the medical solution for the medical problem of addiction.

Bob

bob3d -- This has me mildly concerned because a few valued members view TSM as the Anti-AA, especially with respect to religion (ahem nick ). A&A's (aethists & agnostics) do not have the market cornered when it comes to being offended by AA's "spirituality". In Alanon, I found Step 4 intrusive and offensive when I started to get peer pressure to "work the steps", including admitting to another person (which is a 12 stepper, not your priest) the exact nature of our wrongs.

I rarely mention here that I am a person of faith. Occasionally I have mentioned prayers for someone in crisis. Beyond that, it's really not relevant, other than I routinely thank God in prayer we found one another. But as to TSM, it works equally well for atheists, agnostics, rats and persons of faith. You cannot say the same for AA. (Now, picture them in a circle, little paws joined, little heads bowed).

I agree with you that TSM has nothing to do with religion. The fact that AA has a pseudo-Christendom belief system as part of its meetings and in the Big Book, may make people believe that TSM is at odds with belief in a Judeo–Christian faith. This comparison is unreasonable. Unless you're a Christian Scientist, medical care for a medical problem does not involve faith or spirituality. As I said many months ago, I doubt that Sinclair's rats had a spiritual awakening before their alcoholism was cured.

I guess some of us here may appear anti-religious because AA and 12-stepping make such a big deal about the use of faith and spirituality in keeping AL intake at bay. At best, it is a crutch, not a cure. And some of us here are in fact anti-AA, myself included, although I won't go out of my way to convert anyone who believes in it. Let them fail in their method first, before finding a medical cure just like I had to do.

Your best statement quoted above is that "it's really not relevant", any more than a person's diabetes would be affected by the level of their spirituality or confessing their sins to some self-professed do-gooder about how their transgressions and inherent evil nature led them into the scourge of diabetes.

I must say I like the thought of the little rats in a prayer circle with their paws held and bowing their little heads and squeaking out the Lord's prayer in unison.

Bob

Faith and spirituality are not a part of my life, they are all of it. As such my faith and spirituality would be compromised if I were to subscribe to the AA version of reality - something that isn't going to happen. To view myself as powerless would be to separate myself from God, as God is not powerless. TSM and my faith are not only not in opposition, they are working in concert to help me live.

I've had friends who know about my "ask the Universe" philosophy ask me why it never helped with my alcoholism. I tell them that asked the Universe, and the Universe sent me TSM!

Bob and Lena, you are right on track with the idea of relevance. What is relevant to us right now is beating our addiction.

I entirely agree that religion is not relevant to TSM. I fully understand how people of faith are both advocates of TSM and can be turned off by AA's precepts, many of which have been shown to be anti-Christian by several of the faithful here.

Here is where the issue gets a bit dicier for me. Most AAers ARE religious and believe fully and faithfully that sobriety is the only option. When you present them with scientific evidence that they are wrong (TSM for example), they do not respond with reason but with an unabashed, blind faith in their beliefs AND BY ATTACKING ALL OTHER VIABLE NON FAITH-BASED OPTIONS. The fact of the matter is that the number one obstacle to a pharmacological solution to alcoholism is the HOCUS POCUS cult known as AA. For this reason, I believe it needs to be exposed for what it is: the number one force preventing millions from obtaining a viable treatment. If they had a "live and let live" philosophy I'd be fine with it. But the fact is I almost died because I didn't hear about naltrexone and I (and millions of others in dire need) have AA and its bogus tenets, in large part, to thank for that.

Now that is brilliant.

And to come home exhausted from travel and see my dear friends post such beautifully relevant posts, made my Christian heart sing,...God Bless you cats and,..ahhh,...can I bless you atheist bastards too

And I mean it.....

But do you get my point,...basically,..a workbook for us TSMers..maybe copping the AA chapters hit a little too close to home to some of us more traumatized,...still recovering from the S*itty coffee, to the 13th steppers, adn as I experienced,..the tough love whereby you leave a cat to die rather than give him a helping hand...which is slightly overstated,..but nonetheless,..exists.

Thats all I was getting at,..thanks for your thoughtful posts,..best, Jim