I don't really understand this. I don't see ego entering into this at all. I've never felt any sort of a competitive vibe around here.

Well, if XaJere viewed it that way, others may also. When the AA chips were mentioned, it made me think. (You know how I feel about 12-stepping). Anyway, this is a good time and place to discuss it.

Bob

RE-REPLY

I DON'T WANT CENSORSHIP

I may have misrepresented myself here. I was on another board a while back that had to do with another topic & I was censored for being honest. So I certainly don't want that.

It's not a jugular kind of issue with me.

As far as my comment about relapse in TSM - it's not in the vein of AA kind of relapse...more like the self doubt in doubt in the effectiveness of Nal when maybe the weekly numbers start re-climbing back up. I realize this is all progress.

Me more than anyone knows - I must never take myself too seriously especially when such an experiment is taking place - I am proud to be one of the new pioneers...TSM. It's really new, unconventional and yet futuristic. We are really altering our consciousness because of a desire to no longer alter our consciousness and face life without this habit of drinking alcohol.

I know too, that as we type along throughout our daily ventures that this board is an opportunity to express my feelings and feelings can be fickle too. I reserve the right to change my opinion, change my mind, change my clothes and just change.

I absolutely agree with Lo0p - there is no competitive vibe here, and ego doesn't come into it for me.

I voted 'no' - to the cured list being scrapped. If people have chosen to declare themselves cured then imho it is censorship to remove that. However rather than a cured section, I do think it could be renamed 'TSM success stories' or something similar. It could include the cured list for those who want to go / remain on it, but would also include the stories of others who lives have been changed immeasurably but either are not happy with using that word, or don't feel they have quite reached that stage.

I just voted no to it being scrapped , it has a right to exist .
It should not be censored as those stories were huge milestones of great Joy
and they're part of our history here .
Too bad if someone sees big egos they have a right to be offended , I don't see what's meant there really .
Even still I'm not totally at ease with continued use of the term and agree with notion of control regained as the essence . So like 8 days reckon " TSM Sucess stories " could over title it and have the cured bit as subsection .

Y'know whats great about this thread? You can see the spirit of our members...Egoless, and most are concerned with happiness and health. Everyone has total respect and just are voicing opinions...Yes or no, I just wanted to state that (I voted yes, but now reading threads,..I'd probably be not sure......I vote that the board remains how bout that? Again, I would like to see a chat room because, I'm thinking of trying for a AF day (third since I started) and would love to be able to come here and chat tonight to get through those 10-midnight hours......Best, Jim

A lot of good points have been brought up here, and that's the important thing. After hearing what you all had to say, I don't think scrapping the thread is the best idea, but I personally am going to think less in terms of "cured", and more in terms of living my life in the most constructive and positive manner, striving always for personal growth and the betterment of the world in general. (I'm thinkin' lofty today ). If the "cure" is the most motivating goal for some people then more power to them. There are many ways to view and use TSM, and the way this forum reflects that diversity is a wonderful thing.

Well, onward through the fog I go!

We could have a "Cured" list and "Under Control" list. Mainly, outsiders may not view someone living a perfectly healthy happy life now at 18 units per week as being "Cured", even if they came from a 72 unit per week addiction. I'm very happy that there is this intermediate ground that folks can drink at a much lower level in a controlled and healthy manner. It's a vast improvement.

But to be "Cured", the addiction must be gone, and general societal norms (NIAAA guidelines for instance) should be met before outsiders really take this method seriously. We TSMers know that a lot of us have come a long way to improving our lives and yet society in general may not recognize that major progress because the units are too high in their eyes. If we are doing TSM to help ourselves exclusively, then who cares about outsiders. But once we have helped ourselves and think about those millions of people that could have better lives, we should think carefully how we present our improved lives to this group. Many alcoholics would love to just gain control and that's it, they don't necessarily need a cure, just control. And I think that's great. Others would want to be cured, de-addicted or even abstinent. I for one would like to be abstinent one day. I'm fairly sure I'll get there in time. (Then we could start another list called "the abstinent" )

Thoughts on this?

Bob

Why'd you change your sig back bob?

I like it, Bob. My definition of success is that you achieve what you set out to achieve. For some that may be abstinence, for some maybe 5 units a week. And some just want control of our lives, regardless of units. By allowing for goals other than "cured" we open up the path for people to find success that reflects their individual goals. And you're also right that our (puritanical IMHO) society might not take such an understanding view of being happy with 18 drinks a week. I don't care what they think when it comes to my own progress, but I do want TSM to be able to find acceptance in our society in general, and to that end I think having some good, clear standards might be helpful.