I was so busy ragging AA I got off point. Yes, I'm also a natural-born skeptic. I also think for myself. (I think this is entirely unrelated to being an "early adopter" however. I'm not on the lookout for new products, in fact, I'm skeptical of most of them.) I went into AA and TSM the same way: hoping for a miracle and keenly aware that either could be BS. I quickly discovered that AA is BS and that TSM is the real deal. However, heading into each, I had few preconceptions about either. In fact, I probably had a better preconception about AA than TSM; TSM was a complete novelty whereas I knew that a lot of people did well in AA. (Of course, most of my friends who did well in AA would tell me, "A lot of their stuff is total crap; I just found it useful hearing the stories of other alcoholics.")

Okay, I'm on chapter 2 of what looks like seventy something essays. This is friggin' ridiculous. My brain can only process a limited amount of epiphanies in one night.

How much of this stuff is true?

LoOp

it is certainly subjective, and possibly selective, but I have checked many of the source references (e.g. Valiants books) and I haven't found any misrepresenations yet.

It might interest you to know that I was aware of this before ever posting at SoberRecovery.com, and yet managed to keep from mentioning it

I guess I'm an 'early adopter'. I always love to be ahead of the game; healthcare, technology - everything. It was a miracle I heard of TSM and also Baclofen, and both cried out to me straightaway.



I take it with a big pinch of salt myself. I've been to many AA meetings (and NA, which I actually preferred even though I'm an alcoholic and not a drug addict - there was much less emphasis on god (uncapitalised for obvious reasons) in a Religious sense (deliberately capitalised) as a key part of the process. OK those meetings didn't work that well for me, but I never saw enough to justify a really strong aversion - in fact they were helpful, but just not helpful enough.

Having said that, I never got a sponser, never said more than a quick hello to the obvious loons who were hanging round, etc. I hear a good place to buy drugs is anywhere near an NA or CA meeting in London and that doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

But the Orange Papers look to me just as obsessive, crazy and mind-twisting as the subject they're aimed at is supposed to be (and like I say, from personal experience I saw none of that, but I never got into it too deeply).

So, no AA right now for me, but no Orange Papers either. If it's a black/white thing personally I'd choose AA as at least you meet really good-hearted, kind, caring people there if you're careful and have the anti-loon goggles strapped on

I kind of agree 8. The Orange Papers is a bit over the top BUT, many of its critical assertions, including the efficacy of AA and its Evangelical Christian roots, are beyond dispute, IMO.

Just my humble opinion Nick but the Orange Papers looks like it was put together by an absolute obsessive. And I don't know how bad AA can really be if you get in that deep, but nothing I've seen from a number of meetings has come anywhere close to what is up on that site - I've mainly seen people just supporting each other through abstinence. Alright it wan't my thing, but who's to say that whatever the original intentions of the founders may or may not have been the system doesn't work well for some people?

I saw no 'loony' business at any of the many meetings I've been to in the past. But I see a lot on that Orange Papers site. I'm just glad that right now I don't have to visit either and I have TSM

Ahem, back to discussing early adopters . . . .

Thanks Lena- i was begining to wonder would this 'discussion' about AA come up on every thread!

A good question and how would it be answered in AA ?
It probably wouldn't , you'd have to make do with "Take the cotton out of ears and put it in your mouth ".

On the one hand if you read the historical origins of AA and the Oxford group and
weirdo fascio Buchner it is very sinister then you can claim innocently
"oh well some groups are good and they're just helping others along ...".
If that is true and they never touch the cultish substructure of the steps I might buy
it . However what normally happens is you are encouraged to get a sponsor and work the steps and you will get to the step of a fearless moral inventory . But don't
worry your sponsor will help you ....( Even if s/he is more dysfunctional than you -
and of course they are ! ).

I too have my christianity but, of late, and after a largely agnostic life . And I say that in the context of feeling AA thinks they're better than the church and hijack .