Part of the issue is that many AA zealots are far more interested in a "spiritual awakening" than they are about helping people quit alcohol. The original founders of AA were interested in saving souls -- using AA was a pretext for doing that, hence the, admitting sin, turning yourself over to a higher power and making amends. Personally, I have no interest in all of that -- I just want to stop drinking like a fish.

Yeah, a lot of us can relate to that. It's horrible. You might consider getting some Naltrexone kind of as a prophylactic.

Kurt -- I hope you read the thread written by the husband whose wife has started TSM. There's so much to be sais for throwing off that yoke of shame and despair that are the product of daily broken promises to ourselves. So much of the depression and anxiety flow from the self-loathing when we feel alcohol addiction is some character defect. When we see it's not so, it's liberating!

Hoping -- I agree to a point. I pity anyone who has found their way out through Rational Recovery. It's the worst of the worst: Alcohol addiction is indeed a character defect, but the drinker really does have power over it, so it's a selfish choice. The drinker does not deserve any family support and the family should resolve to carry through on an ultimatum that all drinking stops now or the family is gone. I had my lowest moment when I took a drink after finding that web site and thought it made sense. I kept reading and I was still on the web site when I grabbed a glass of wine. I always wondered what the suicide rate is for those who fell into RR. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

wow

Hi kurt

good luck in your journey. I think I'm done with the SR site. I don't like being treated like a kindergarten kid - the summary deleting of posts is really getting on my wick now. I have put a significant amount of time and effort into several, clearly and careful explaining my thoughts and seeking to be respectful of all their rules, and then the whole post gets deleted because someone gets their knickers in a twist over one sentence. It seems as though there are different rules for certain members too - as I've seen some downright abusive posts get let slide.

Kurt:

What you are experiencing is what finally drove me to seek treatment for my drinking habit. After nearly 30 years of drinking, on some weekends I got to the point where my hangovers were so bad (primarily in the form of extreme anxiety) that I would start to drink the following day just to shake the hangover. But I quickly found that the drinking, which temporarily relieved the anxiety/hangover, was extremely temporary and the negativity would come back as soon as the alcohol was out of my system. Which gave me the choice of saying screw it, and simply cut of the drinking, or continue forward and basically become a 24/7 drinker. I chose the former route but for the first time in my life I fully understood why people slip into 24/7 drinking. I don't know what to tell you, other than if you can somehow not drink when anxious, you won't repeat the cycle. But of course you can't do that, which is why you're here. So, I guess I just wanted to say that I can totally relate to this horrific cycle you are in. Just take the nal one hour before drinking and ultimately you'll be ok.

My best to you,

Nick

I just dropped the excerpt from Bill W's speech over there:

The following quote is from a speech given by By Bill W. (Co-founder of AA) "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN IT’S THIRD DECADE" . Presented to the New York City Medical Society on Alcoholism April 28, 1958:

" We also realize that the discoveries of the psychiatrists and the biochemists have vast implications for us alcoholics. Indeed, these discoveries are today far more than implications. Your President and other pioneers in and outside your Society have been achieving notable results for a long time, many of their patients having made good recoveries without any A.A. at all. It should here be noted that some of the recovery methods employed outside A.A. are quite in contradiction to AA principles and practice. Nevertheless, we of AA ought to applaud the fact that certain of these efforts are meeting with increasing success. We know, too, that psychiatry can often release the big neurotic overhang from which many of us suffer after A.A. has sobered us. We know that
psychiatrists have sent us innumerable alcoholics who would have never otherwise approached AA, and many clinics have done likewise. We clearly see that by pooling our resources we can do together what could never be accomplished in separation; or in short-sighted criticism and in competition. Therefore I would like to make a pledge to the whole medical fraternity that AA will always stand ready to cooperate, that A.A. will never trespass upon medicine, that our members who feel the call will increasingly help in those great enterprises of education, rehabilitation and research which are now going forward with such promise. So menacing is the growing spectacle of alcoholism that nothing short of the total resources of society can hope to vanquish or much lessen the strength of our very dangerous adversary, John Barleycorn. The subtlety and power of the alcoholic’s malady is revealed on every page of mankind’s history - and never so starkly and so destructive as in this century. When our combined understanding and knowledge have been fully massed and applied, we of AA know that we shall find our friends of medicine in the very front rank - just where so many of you are already standing today. When such an array of benign and cooperative action is in full readiness, it can, and will surely be, a great tomorrow for that vast host of men who suffer from alcoholism, and from all its dark and baleful consequences."

I'm done there now. I got sick of having posts deleted for the most tenuous of reasons. The site proudly proclaims its support for 'free speech', 'intellectual freedom' and 'tolerance', but these seem to be in very short supply if you're not an AA-er or something similar.

I made a long and detailed post which I took some time over to consider carefully - and the whole thread has been removed!

I then made the following 'goodbye' post, which I think you'll agree is fairly respectful:



I get a reply from the moderator (maybe there were more and they were deleted - who knows!) some 20 minutes later saying "Enjoy your journey" and the thread is locked. Bizzare!

And then it gets better - the above reply is deleted. That lasts maybe an hour (could be less) and is replaced by the following, before the thread is locked again:



I find that quite offensive, not to mention bizzare. Do they really think I'd go to the bother of making 90+ posts (including deleted ones) just to 'further my own interest'. What interests might they be exactly? How am I 'using their members'? Just very weird, and fascistic if you ask me.

I've sent a private message to the person concerned - we'll see what happens. I saw no point in entering into a public sparring match (not that any such post would last very long).

Yeah, that did it. The thread is now locked.

Well it gets more interesting:

The pm I sent requesting that the above post be changed has vanished into the ether (convenient that) - but to summarise, it was a polite email suggesting that the initial post (quoted above) may have been 'made in haste', denying what that post said, arguing that I would have no rational reason for doing so and requestion than an addendum (NOT a deletion/alteration) was made to clarify the position. I also noted that I was curious as to why the thread had been locked.

This was the reply



I replied with the following:




So I guess I do have my answer. The site, whether willfully, or through a combination of insecurity and stupidity, engages in the most bizarre and pernicious censorship. There are many members there who I have no doubt are sincere people, some of whom I supsect I would like if I met in person. There are also a quota of assholes, dogmatists and simpletons (as you'll find on any large site to be fair). In many cases they are probably unaware of or unbothered by the censorship, as it hasn't affected them yet.
The bottom line is that the site is supposed to be about recovery - but anyone taking the naive view that that is its primary outcome will be sadly disappointed - at least based on my limited experience of that part of it.

Moderation is an extremely powerful tool - as is any form of editorial control - it can be used to present any individual in a range of lights and to control perception and, to a large extent, thought. That they abuse that privilege over there to such an extent is disturbing.

And finallly while I'm venting - I'll get it off my chest, that I cannot abide the orgiastic virtual back-slapping and mutual mental masturbation that is their practice of 'thank you for this useful post'. At best it might be a harmless way of strengthening community spirit, but the practicalities of it over there seem to be a way for simpletons to shout 'yay us' at each other and intellectually bully anyone who disagrees with them.