Hi Nalway,

First off, congrats on your AF week and losing weight! Well done! It feels good, doesn't it?

The rest of your post is heart breaking! I have a lump in my throat as I write. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time right now to read back in your thread to see what else you've said about your daughter and to know how you feel about AA, so I'm going to jump right in and give my opinion in the sincere hope that I won't offend you.

I personally wouldn't go to AA and I wouldn't advise your daughter to go either. AA teach helplessness, they teach that we are incapable of managing our own lives, that we are 'alcoholics' this becomes our definition, we have to identify with that, they teach that we can't control our drinking. Basically, we learn that we are an inferior sub-group of people, a group apart, we're not normal... And that any accomplishments we might achieve are due to external factors - a higher power...

I think that's a very harmful and unhealthy attitude to have, it's destructive because it leads to a self-fulfilling prophesy. After a few failed attempts at the unrealistic goal of total abstinence, the person stops making an effort because they think: what's the use, I'm a hopeless case anyway, I'm an incapable, pathetic alcoholic, I might as well destroy myself. They make little effort to take control of their situation because they don't believe they can, because they've been taught that they can't.

We should be learning self-respect and self-reliance. We should be learning that we can control our lives, our drinking and our habits. We should be learning that just because we have made some bad choices in our lives that we are not doomed to continue that way. We should be learning that we can change, we can grow, we can progress.

We are normal, capable human beings, and just like everyone else on this planet, we make mistakes and we go through rough patches, and just like everyone else, we can overcome our problems, we are capable of turning things around. We, the individual, me, not a higher power or a group of strangers, me. We badly need a sense of self-worth, self-reliance and self respect. AA does the exact opposite.

Have you spoken to her about Naltrexone? Has she been to therapy? I'd recommend Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) or Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT).

Self-efficacy is a critical component of behavioral therapies, they teach people that they have the capabilities and competence to manage their own lives. Any success is attributed to the person and reflects back on their self-image; failure helps people learn how to improve their self-management skills and rebuild their confidence, be it for her drinking, gambling or anger.

This book might be helpful:

http://peele.net/7tools/index.php

As for, should you let her move back home? Well, that's a tough call, on the one hand, she is your daughter after all, so you're hardly likely to leave her on the streets, but on the other hand, some boundaries need to be set. Maybe you and your husband could draw up a 'contract' with her, the 3 of you work it out together, a list of things that are unacceptable for all of you??

I wish you all the best!

Curi

First of all, hugs to you, m'dear! And now I will try to come up w/ something useful to say, though this is tough one...

The first obvious point that Curi raised is yes, what about TSM for your daughter??? Though you currently aren't exactly where you want to be in that regard, I still consider you highly successful and a good example - you know the ropes and could be so supportive. How much does she (& your family) know about your journey w/ TSM?

On the other hand, if she is truly bottomed out, a period of abstinence might be really helpful and however she can achieve that, than power to her. When I was about her age and first wanted to quit drinking, I went to AA - 30 meetings in 30 days - and found it a good way to make a commitment and be supported by warm, friendly, understanding people. I never bought into the AA hocus-pocus, and sensed many of the others didn't either. I found a nice women's group and it was a life saver. But I understand Curi's concerns w/ AA...is your daughter a "joiner"? or could she just use it to make a commitment to quit.

Then we've seen the success of Curi & Ellpee starting TSM after a stretch of abstinence - 3 years in Curi's case and what? 6 months for Ellpee, which seems to have worked well for them.

Lastly, I definitely agree that if she comes to live w/ you that you be ready for that and have a specific list of what is expected and acceptable. My niece moved back w/ my sister's family, post-rehab and they had very specific criteria. It ended up being a win-win, as their overall relationship as a family improved and the niece had a lot more appreciation for them. Keep us posted!

Thank you Curi and Chrissie, I so appreciate your input. Thank you so much for your support here. Well, we ended up going to my daughters AA meeting feeling quite lost. Really sureal walking into a room full of strangers. They all smiled and welcomed us. My daughter came late. It was very interesting listening to several very sad stories from the members of the group. But still we ended up leaving during the break. My hub has very little tolerance for the unknown and took the break as an opportunity to exit the meeting. Before we left we talked to my daughters friend/long time supporter. A mom from her childhood who helped her many years ago. Sweet woman really. She said that my daughter has been sober for a week and asked if we would please pay her phone bill of $80 so she could continue looking for a job. When I arrived home to pay the bill it turned out to be a nearly $300 bill. Ugggh! I paid it. But this is how it goes with her always. She has a way of manipulating people around. I usually end up feeling quite sorry for her. And before I know it, I've loaned her even more money.

As for telling her about Naltrexone, yes, I've told her in the past that I was taking it. But in her current state, I would not suggest she start TSM. IMHO she needs a certain period of sobriety to get her ducks in order. Who's to say that AA might be good for her right now. We will see.

Thanks everyone.

Nal on

Well this you tube video sort of goes against the theory of TSM but it was very interesting. It brought to light one of my big concerns..... Is it genetic?And if my son tries alcohol will he become like me? Right now he's just the best we'll rounded young man. But I fear if he tries alcohol his brain will get "turned onto his pre-existing genetic makeup geared towards alcoholism". I sure hope not......


http://youtu.be/e9F5wpvq2h0

Anyway, update time: the Nal seems to have little effect on me these days. On the weekends I still look forward to my wine and I drink with abandon try as I may to control myself.
Next day I feel pretty guilty. The only thing that counteracts that is my running. My husband has voiced his concen about my health based on the amount Im drinking. I just told him to try to respect what I'm doing and support me. Time will tel......

Nal on everyone and be well:))

Hello all,

Wow!!!! All I can say is holy %$!!!! what an experience I had yesterday. First I should say that I've been on my annual slim down diet for the past 4 weeks. That means no alcohol at all. But getting ready for the first weekend in a month that I would be drinking, I duly took my nal yesterday and along with that I ate a big steak. I've done this many times before and literally felt no effect from taking my nal. But not yesterday....... My body had such a terrible reaction I landed in the ER last night. It began about 45 minutes after taking the nal. I became very restless. Could not sit still, very depressed all of a sudden like my whole world was just lost to me. I hated my beloved home that I work in each day. I was pacing back and forth saying "I dont want to be here any more". This isnt me..... I love my home, I love my pets, I love my life. How could I be feeling this way? Very upsetting! Cold sweats ensued... I took two hot baths and two showers and had to change my clothes a total of 4 times. Nothing helped. I forced myself to vomit to try to get the nal out, but it was too late and did nothing to stop the effects. Diarreah all over (sorry to be so gross) I went to bed and shivered under the covers but I couldnt sit still and felt like I wanted to crawl right out of my skin. I cried, I called my husband and talked to him. Didnt help. More cold sweats. I took valerian root to try to calm myself down. It did not work. I drank a beer and that seemed to help for about a half hour. Then my husband came home early from work, he was so worried about me. I drank another beer and some wine, lots of wine, took more baths to try to settle. Finally, I told him we better go to the walk in. I need them to give me something to calm me down. I couldnt take the horrible restless feeling I had. So we went. Of course they gave me nothing that would calm me down to any great effect. So I just squirmed and shivered under the blankets for two and a half hours before they released me. I went to bed in my clothes I was so cold. Took more valerian and tossed and turned all night. Im better today. I can sit still and that awful crawly feeling is gone. But I still feel so depressed about my choices now. If I were to do the right thing I would never drink again. It that just makes me want to cry. I've been at this TSM for almost two years now!! What a waste and what a dissappointment. What do I do. I really need a hug (

Sorry to be Debbie downer guys!!!

Nalwayout,
Wow ... Sounds like an absolute nightmare. You and I have been at this for along time and thought that we would have been in control of our drinking months ago. It has been 20 months for me and I made the decision last month to add Baclofen to my regime. We all need to evaluate where we are and take what we think is the appropriate action. It really pisses me off that most of us have to do this on our own since the establishment has decided to ignore any sort of chemical solution to our collective problem(s).

Since you have been taking Nal for so long and this is the first time that you have had this type of reaction, I wonder if this episode was caused by something other than Nal and alcohol??? Something to think about anyway. Also I know that it can be discouraging to be on this journey for so long and not to be in absolute control of our drinking, but there have been numerous TSMers that only it the cure after 2 years. TangoB is the most recent one that comes to mind, he just posted this week in response to Virgil's post.

I hope that you have a much better day today and I think that you should try not to drive your self crazy worry too much. It sounds to me that you had an anxiety attack, I have been there myself. It is very common for people with drinking problems to have comorbid anxiety.

Don't beat yourself up ... Be positive, you are working on your drinking problem and trying to get better in an environment (addiction specialist ) that do not give you any support. At least it sound like your husband has had your back.

Here's to better days ahead.

Thanks so much Diver,

I'm wondering the same thing. During my diet and 4 weeks without alchohol I was taking Kratom. For about three weeks straight. It's legal here in the US and gives you a nice relaxed feeling and still allows you to go about your daily routine without any ill effects. But since Thursday I haven't had any Kratom (I tried to take it yesterday but threw it up) and since I'm still in such a strange mood, I'm wondering too if its a combination of losing weight, Kratom withdrawel and taking a full dose of Nal after my body had cleansed itself of Nal. I'm going to go talk to my prescribing doctor and see what she has to say. This is really so life changing for me. I had gotten very used to the idea that I would always have my beloved wine in my life. We have many upcoming celebrations this year including a trip out to WINE COUNTRY for our 20th wedding anniversary. I was so looking forward to it. But now all that seems to fall flat. I'm going to have to free myself of all of this somehow. And so I guess is going to be complete sobriety. I don't have a chance if I can't take Nal any more. (

Just a follow up on Kratom. I wanted to post this to save anyone on this forum to hassle of what I just went through. I thought it would help me get through the diet using a natural herb that relaxed me. Made the boredom seem bearable. Boy was I wrong. In doing some research this morning I found out about Kratom withdrawel symptoms. And I'm pretty sure that withdrawel from Kratom was the majority of my problems yesterday. So just a warning to anyone who wants to listen, NEVER TAKE KRATOM. It is not the harmless plant that you may hear about on YOU TUBE. Yes, there is actually a Kratom organization trying to tout Kratom as a helpful natural herb. But what they are not telling folks about is what happens when you try to stop taking it. Thankfully, I only took it for three weeks straight. So my withdrawel must have been very mild compared to someone who takes it for longer. Here is an excerpt of what some poor unfortunate posted about his Kratom withdrawel experience:


My Experience withdrawing from Kratom

I have personally withdrawn from Kratom after more than a year’s use and can therefore talk about my own withdrawals which I have been led to believe mirror those of others but not necessarily in their severity or duration.

I took Kratom leaf twice a day, ever day for over a year. I decided one day to quit cold turkey; I used up the last of my supply and held my breath. I knew what was coming, I had tried to quit in the past but had always given up due to the crippling sadness that had enveloped me.

Psychological Kratom Withdrawal

Within 8 hours of my last dose of Kratom, I began to feel anxious and incredibly sad, despondent and plain depressed. It is difficult to describe the sense of loneliness and desolation I felt, everything seemed amazingly bleak. For me, this aspect of withdrawals was by far the most difficult to cope with and it continued for over a month. I must stress again that this was my experience others state that all their symptoms including the despondency disappeared after 4 or 5 days.

Physical Kratom Withdrawal

The other symptoms I experienced during Kratom withdrawal were all physical and ‘only’ lasted for 3 or 4 days. These self-reported symptoms during Kratom withdrawal are similar to those seen in individuals undergoing opiate withdrawal but are far less severe. If you have experienced other symptoms, please share them in the comments section of this article. The symptoms of physical withdrawal from Kratom included:
anxiety
cold-like symptoms
insomnia (the tick-tock of the clock just went on and on, night seemed as if it would never end)
lethargy/apathy
RLS – restless leg syndrome (it felt as if my legs were electrified and this contributed to insomnia)
[b]sweating[/b]

Amazing! Most of my symptoms yesterday are a mirror of what this fellow said about his Kratom withdrawel. OMG I wish I had read about withdrawel before I did this. I would never have touched the stuff. The depression is so pronounced! I feel better now but last night I felt like I did 6-7 years ago when I was trying to be "Brave" and not take any anitdepressents. Incredible and crippling sadness as the fellow above mentioned.

So, I am going down to the Pharmacy and refilling my prescription for Naltrexone. I will start slow maybe 1/4 of a pill and gradually get back up to the full dose just like I did last year when I was on a diet for 52 days. I've never had a reaction like yesterday from Naltrexone. The reaction is much different and alot better than what happened to me yesterday.

I hope this information is helpful to anyone who would like to read through this.

Thank you all.

Nal on

OMG Nalwayout, that sounds horrible. I'm glad, however, that you've discovered what happened to you. I sometimes still get terrible side effects from nal, but not THAT bad - usually just nausea (sometimes vomiting) and bit of that restless, grey feeling. I'm really hopeful that you can get back on nal and enjoy your wedding anniversary in wine country!
EL

Thanks EL,

I have to admit I'm very leary of taking nal again. My theory on what happened last friday is this: Whatever Kratom was still in my system when I took my first nal after a month was wiped clean from the opiod receptors in my brain within an hour. Kratom works on the opiod receptors just like alcohol. But i wasn't taking nal while on Kratom. So all of a sudden the nal caused instant and intense withdrawel from the Kratom. I think that's why it felt so awful to me. Instant depression! After all I had only started taking Kratom about 3 weeks prior. I went through the weekend without taking nal at all. I actually found alcohol quite uninviting anyway. Had a few during superbowl but found it very unappealing. I'll start slow and take first a quarter pill of nal and then one half and work my way up. But I am so repulsed by my experience last week, I just have no desire to alter my brain in any way. I like feeling just normal, no drugs, no alchohol, nothing.......

We will see how I feel come the weekend. But my gut is telling me, no nal for a while.

Best wishes