I wanted to start a thread for anyone ESPECIALLY those who have been sober for a bit and recently relapsed,....

My friend had relapsed. For two weeks he drank crazy,...typical alkie,...2 bottles of wine plus a 6 pack more or less,...or fill in the blanks,,...Begged him to get NAL. He did. And again I have mentioned this many times,...my theory is since his neural pathways had not rebuilt the alcoholic addiction, he had immediate results as in the following. I just got off the phone with him.....3 AM...sober...had been working on a bottle of wine for 10-12 hours.....but there's a glass still full and he just told me...."Jim I'm falling asleep,...I think the oatmeal I just ate has been making me drowsy"...or he's just plain tired.....No hard detox....He's ecstatic with the results and is calling himself a poster boy for TSM...His attitude is great and he is oh so very happy...

He was definitely resistant in his drunken state initially...or should I say lackadaisical. But once he started the treatment it thrust him right back to where he was pre relapse,....but with a beautiful option....he doesn't have to say never again...He's regained control....

Now I feel this could be a slippery slope People intentionally relapsing to "drink in control". PLEASE I'm not recommending that......and I worry that planting this seed I could send somebody to their death.....MY Recommendation is this....if you're sober (and I know AA sobriety) stay sober. Its a hellofa lot better than the hell of the last 3+ years of drinking that damn near and may still cost me my marriage and my life,...my health was waning....

The good news.....Its 3.30AM.....DO I seem drunk to you? I did an airport run....SOber....came home had two units (On top of the three earlier today). I'm ecstatic,...not by the amount (as I was hoping less) but by the fact I never really got drunk or even buzzed......The glimmers are turning into...(what the hell is more than a glimmer....one of you English scholar types please...)......Much love, Jim Clark

PS I want the relapsers to please post here....I think this is an important topic (maybe its already been addressed...if so I'm sorry)

Hi

Im exactly the kind of person you are talking about. I had been sober for over 2.5 years mostly pretty happily. The cravings were always there sometimes more than others and I always knew that I had to be afraid of alcohol and the fear of relapse was a constant.However it was 100% better than binge drinking every weekend to the point of black out sometimes.

I went on holliday recently at the end of January with my hubby who has never seen me as an alcoholic and thought I should have a few drinks.He is a moderate drinker and never got it. I really really craved on holls. I had allready found this site and had been reding here for over a month. I knew the rates of success but I was terrified I would be one of the people it didnt work for. In the end I actually made a decision to drink again as opposed to slipping. Its not something I recomend. I am very very hopefull that it will pay off for me as last weekend was my first on nal and it was just amazing. I realize this is just a honeymoon period and my intake may well increase for a while but if in 3 to 6 months I can go out for a night with my husband and have a few glasses of wine and no longer have to have this big fear of alcohol it will have been worth it for me.

Would your friend post here do you think? It would be great because I dont know if there are any other recent relapsers on ths site.

Hi Mario,

He said that he'd prefer if I would just report,...but if you read my posts,...I can be a conniving cat,...So we'll see...I would like him to post,....but if I'm simply posting his reports then you'll get the info regardless,....So no harm no foul....hey 4 AM here in the states ...still sober,....Pre TSM I would've passed out by 2 AM if I were lucky (probably midnight) and be very deep in alcoholic passed out sleep,...AS it is I've had maybe 6 units over a span of 8 hours.....Go Figure,...Please post on this thread even if you're posting on your own progress. It needs to be discussed....Best, Jim Clark

Hey Jim -- I think this thread is a great idea, but I wanted to challenge your theory that "since his neural pathways had not rebuilt the alcoholic addiction, he had immediate results." According to Sinclair, the neural pathways remain super-strengthened, even after years of abstinence, unless treated with nal (or some other opioid agonist). As Eskapa put it, addiction remains in the "always-on" position (Eskapa, pp. 83-84). This explains why, when abstinent alcoholics relapse, they hit the bottle hard. It's Alcohol Deprivation Effect.

I'm very glad you convinced your friend to take naltrexone. I would be interested to hear stories from others who started TSM following a relapse.

The only thing I could add to the discussion is that my experience with drinking immediatly after I relapsed was similar to opening up a big cavernous hole and from the minute I finished the first glass I knew that no amount of wine was going to fill it. It scared the living daylights out of me and I pinned all my hopes on TSM.

However I do think that after being abstinant for 2.5 years I dont think the habit of drinking as often is as strong as it was. But the minute I add alcohol to the equasion the whole flame takes off out of controll. Right now im having a honeymoon so Im going to enjoy it as long as it lasts.

Excellent thread topic. Lena is right about the neural pathways being "always on" in addiction, but I can imagine a way in which a person in a relapse scenario could do exceedingly well with tsm. It has been suggested that the alcohol deprivation effect can be used to our advantage (Springer was talking about it but I don't remember exactly where). The idea is that as the alcohol deprivation effect builds the expectation and anticipation of the reward also build, so that when you do finally indulge, and the reward isn't there, a lot of extinction can occur in a short time.

Kind of like sex with an ex that you remember being a firecracker, but who's actually a dud: it's like damn, ok, let's not do that again! Anyway, I believe that is how the theory goes, and some of us have used it purposefully (in regard to alcohol) with good results. I don't think it falls within the strict scope of the book though.

Firebird I agree. Ive only drank a few times since relapsing before I started TSM and now Im sorry I did. I should have waited for the nal to get here. Even so the addiction was not yet at the stage that I was so out of controll that I couldnt stop. I did stop afer about 10 units but the craving to keep going was huge and there was no way I could have stayed moderating like that over time. Drinking with nal reminded me instantly of how I used to drink 20 odd years ago when the fun was as more in the night out and the company than what was in the glass. This weekend I largly got that back and it was beautifull.

Jim I hope Im not letting myself in for a big downfall but Im hopefull that like your friend because I havent been drinking for so long that extension will kick in a bit earlier. I may be sorely dissapointed but at the minute its just a feeling I have and I cant see myself getting out of controll especially as being abstinant meant keeping a reins on myself all the time. As far as I understand DR Sinclair says that using a little bit of will power is not detrimental to the method. I think that even if I had just relapsed without the nal that it would have taken me a few weeks to get back to that stage of the addiction. So Im hoping all this is in my favour, only time will tell.

I remember that too, Firebird. I don't have time to search for it here, but the gist of it is: ADE itself is a huge trigger, especially for binge drinkers (daily drinkers never experience ADE as a trigger because they never are deprived). We drink on nal through our triggers to accomplish extinction. Since ADE is a huge trigger, it make sense that it can be "targeted" and extinguished rapidly.

Plenty of subtleties for this simple method, eh?

that was the whole problem even with daily drinkers - when I tried to have a few days without drinking, always to "relapse," I felt like I wanted to pour the whole bottle down my gob and not stop - the alcohol in the system felt that good. So not only bingers feel that - daily drinkers who try to have a day off just get to feel it more often!! I can only describe the feeling as "powerless."

Tell the truth, last night I had two glasses (took my nal) and I felt like I wanted to keep drinking...I guess even when we feel cured there is lots of work to do - different triggers, habit, whatever it is simply tastes good, I needed something sweet....whatever. (we don't fast on Sunday's in Lent...)

SpringRider has said this many times: watch out! Don't get cocky!!

I go through a moment like BGH describes, usually mid-way through my first glass of wine. It tastes SOOO good I can imagine myself just guzzling the whole bottle, just like old times.

But, BUT... the difference is nowadays I remind myself that I was the one who wanted to be able to control my own drinking. I wanted to be able to stop by conscious choice. So I ask myself, "which is more important - being in control of your drinking, or satisfying this momentary urge?" and the answer is always "be in control of my drinking."

And truly, honestly, that brief rush of wanting to drink all the wine in the world quickly passes. I've been there, done that, and it lead me to TSM. So by the time I finish the first glass I usually debate if I even want the second. I feel like I'm going wild when I have the second glass. By the end of that glass, I'm buzzed and don't want to be drunk, so I stop ... so happy that I can.

Just because the candy tastes SOOOO good does not mean I have to eat the whole bag. Just because that girl on the street is SOOOO cute doesn't mean I have the slightest interest in cheating on my wife! We can have feelings of abandon or excess - we are human - but we can then act on in our OWN interest ... not as slaves to that passing feeling. That's because TSM puts control back into the rational part of our brain, not the conditioned, reflexive part.