Hi Folks,

My understanding of TSM is that it works by progressively reducing the buzz that we get from drinking. In other words, it targets the release of endorphins. As time goes by, the desire for alcohol is ultimately extinguished.

For several weeks now, I have noticed that drinking on naltrexone has the tendency to make me aware of the effects of alcohol sooner than if I wasn't following TSM. When I say 'effects', I'm referring to both the sedative effect and a slight inebriation effect. However, my tendency has been to continue drinking whilst pushing these effects to one side, i.e. I ignore them - and succeed. The nett effect has been no reduction in alcohol intake. Very recently, I have been more inclined to back off the drinking when these effects were apparent. So, I'm just beginning to think that, if I don't ignore these effects of drinking, then my intake of alcohol may reduce. And, it would appear that this is linked to the naltrexone. But, this is what I don't understand - if taking naltrexone does result in my drinking less, surely the mechanism by which it is working is not that stated in my first paragraph above.

So, my question to the cured and, indeed, anyone else who is making progress on TSM is - what has been your experience on naltrexone that has resulted in your alcohol consumption reducing? Does any of what I have said in the paragraph immediately above resonate with you or have your experiences been more in line with the mechanism stated in my first paragraph?

I look forward to any replies.

V.

Ahh Virgil,

First off, another low night of units, 1 Martini (maybe 2-3 units) and a light beer. Great progress for me...

So sorry if I didn't (as the other Sinclairian did) go AF in your honour, BUT,...I did consciously drink less as per your recent posts and inspiration. I feel great today, albeit sleep wasn't that good.....

I am in agreement with the first statement per what I understand. No reward, ultimately, subconsciously, the Pavlovian instinct goes away.

That's been the consensus from the book and what we all understand. What I find great about your latest epiphanies is that, rather than just say,...OK, let me get in the passenger seat and let the healing begin, you take the wheel and say no, I'm not going to drink. Let me analyze how I really feel and make a conscious effort. I think it goes back to the habit versus craving statements....We drink out of habit.

For me I've been abusing alcohol for about 24 years. More than half my life. The times I would drink 1 beer I can't remember. The times I would drink 6 or more and many more is the norm. So even if the Naltrexone is doing its thing and blocking the reward (the endorphin), we are still hell bent out of habit to drink to excess. Why would we do anything but what we've always done. However for me as of late thanks to you and the beauties of negative reinforcement (hangovers which were always few and far between), I think as I drink. Never used to happen. I also think that as the neural superhighways are being turned into country roads again, the vulnerability to hangovers come back into place (negative reinforcement). When I was a kid, I would get hangovers, but since, they were non existent for me except for the occasional one that would come for reasons probably way beyond my comprehension. Food deprivation, lots of alcohol (although that usually wasn't the reason for teh hangover), or some other micro reason that I'd have to be one of you scientist types....of which I'm not.

I've been told to make or break a habit takes about a month. In the case of booze I'm willing to say for those who have drunk over a longer period of time, it just takes longer.

However, beyond the 10% that Nal doesn't help, I think some are psychologically sabotaging their sobriety. I think I would fall under those folk BEFORE having met my good pal Nal. I don't know why, but trying to get sober through AA this time was not happening. So it was too extreme a mountain to climb. I think I could've done it. It's just so much easier I bet in the end with Nal. Or so I think so...

I was cross referencing the Big Book yesterday for Lo0p and happened upon a few nice things in it. I don't hate it all. I'm a spiritual cat so the different bibles (although I love the new testament) appeal to me too. I was in Salem, MA last weekend and was in a Wiccan store checking out some of their literature. Nice stuff.

Bottom line, habit, love the idea of the brain getting healed of the horrific illness and credit your latest insights for some of my growth as of late, cheers Virgil, Best, Jim

Hi Virgil,

I don't think NAL reduces the buzz and I know there are threads on this topic somewhere...Thought that Nick spoke on this subject before...

I have noticed that I feel the effects of alcohol sooner and that when pushed, I can keep drinking to the old levels. The difference is that I do not like that initial buzz anymore. I don't like that 'out-of-control' feeling and I slow down or reduce drinks to compensate. Whereas before TSM, that feeling would just drive me to drink more and faster to keep up w/ the feeling. I only recognize that now as I see a difference - certainly before, I wouldn't be thinking, oh yes, drink faster so you can lose it and have ridiculous conversations and black-out and regret it all later.

Thought this might be due to 'rewinding effect' as others have called it, going back to when the tolerance was lower but now I think this may be due to reaching a 'normal' effect - don't 'normal' people slow down or stop when drinking initially feels unpleasant?? Oh sure, there are times that they go over the line (emotional triggers, parties, nerves) but not on a regular basis.

Really listening and acting on your body's cues may be just as important on this journey as following TSM. Pretty sure that if someone is determined to fail at this, it is possible.. Most people will say that they feel great when eating healthy and exercising but there is still that demon of temptation to be lazy and eat crap - pizza sets off a gazillion endorphins in my body.. just a poor example

TSM does not reduce the buzz that alcohol gives you. It reduces the craving. Over time, TSM reduces your desire to start drinking or to continue to drink large quantities once you do start. However, when you do drink you still get the buzz and ultimately intoxicated.

Q

Thanks for this question - interesting variety of responses - Q, I must say that for ME I do not feel the initial buzz. This happened first Nal night. That buzz is coming and going, mostly going. However last night, after a busy day of not eating enough or drinking enough liquid, my first glass of white wine went straight to my head and I was quite drunk...so different from many here. For me, then, it's the fact that I don't, 99% of the time, get the rush with the first sip. I sort of force myself to drink the first one (don't know why - probably because I'm "supposed to" on Nal) but also because that's what I do (Habit). The second drink is now an option, and the third sits until hubby drinks it. This is NEW behaviour for me. I can actually choose to drink it or not.

I'm still having cravings as before, but Nal is changing the way the actual drinking of the alcohol is effecting me. Today I'm having a bad migraine which my meds are not taking away, and I certainly should not be thinking about a drink at dinner time, BUT I AM. Bottom line: craving/habit still there; (but now no buzz) and what I do about it is changing.

P.S. some of AA's methods are of value, IMO. Don't get too hungry, or too thirsty. I need to watch that because the buzz is sure there on an empty tummy! Straight into the ole blood stream!

Thanks, Q. Valuable feedback. I had always associated the release of endorphins with the 'buzz' feeling but, perhaps it is better to associate endorphin release simply with a feeling of well-being. Endorphins, according to Wikipedia are also "natural pain relievers". I thought I had read on this forum that naltrexone is not an anti-craving medication - is that correct in view of your comment that "TSM...reduces the craving"?

It's really good to hear from someone that's reached the finish line - your input is valuable to those of us who are still on the TSM journey.

V.

I believe the level at which true extinction takes place is below our perception.

On the surface level, where we do perceive activity, I have found that as my tolerance decreases, the level of buzz has been increasing. Because the subsurface satisfaction the endorphins used to provide is gone, I'm finding that buzz more annoying than enjoyable.

The taste of wine for me so far is still nothing short of delicious. I would still love to drink more. However the buzz is becoming the price of drinking it, rather than the reward. The taste is now the reward. I am able to stop eating cake when I've obviously had enough; now I seem able to stop drinking in a similar manner (even though they both would still taste good in my mouth).

I have not yet reached the point where AL seems foul to me. It may yet come.

I still believe that effort or resolve is useful. I don't think it's the rational conversations I am finally able to have with myself ("you've had enough") that are *causing* the reduction, it is the *result* of the reduction in subterranean craving that allows me to even have these conversations successfully with myself. The ability to stop after a few is a test, or perhaps a gauge or speedometer of my progress, not the progress itself. It reveals the change, but does not cause it. The change itself is the rewiring of brain that allows what used to be a reflexive, involuntary activity (heartbeat, breathing, drinking more) become a voluntary one ("shall I, or shan't I?).

My thoughts only. I yield to others with greater experience!

Hi AJ_,

Many thanks for your comments. Your experience clearly concurs with that of Q. So, it's not that TSM reduces the buzz - rather, that it progressively reduces the cravings. Again, it is good to hear back from someone that has reached the finish line and I am learning a lot from you guys - thank you.

All the best.

V.

The taste is now the reward. I am able to stop eating cake when I've obviously had enough;

HOW???? IS THERE A PILL FOR THAT

PlainVanilla this is the goods:

"I still believe that effort or resolve is useful. I don't think it's the rational conversations I am finally able to have with myself ("you've had enough") that are *causing* the reduction, it is the *result* of the reduction in subterranean craving that allows me to even have these conversations successfully with myself. The ability to stop after a few is a test, or perhaps a gauge or speedometer of my progress, not the progress itself. It reveals the change, but does not cause it. The change itself is the rewiring of brain that allows what used to be a reflexive, involuntary activity (heartbeat, breathing, drinking more) become a voluntary one ("shall I, or shan't I?)."

Very clear and very helpful.

Hi PV,

Again, I really appreciate your feeback. Out of interest, in your experience, would it be true to say that the buzz equates to inebriation or, is the buzz just one aspect of inebriation? Just in case anyone thinks I'm getting bogged down in semantics, that's certainly not my intention. Rather, I just want to ensure that I understand what others mean by terms that are central to this topic of discussion.

All the best to you.

V.