Thinking about things mentioned in "extinguishing the triggers" and " urges and habit " I 've a couple of questions which seem to lead on from them and would be interested by people's thoughts about them . It's really about our future drinking in the light of craviing demise .....
I 'm wondering whether abstinence as a final option would be the easiest option
over continued drinking . If it is the case that tsm extinguishes the craving but not the habitual aspects of drinking would it not be re enforcing the habit to continue drinking forever three times a week ?
Would you really feel free drinking say three times a week ?
Wouldn't one finally get freer by letting the habit fade and to get to that suffer the
itches of chucking it as a short term battle ?

Of course between 3 times a week and Never there is the whole spectrum does anyone have an optimum dream position on the spectrum ? .
Consider that if the best answer seems "oh I'd like to just take or leave it " ... well
yes , but could that come about if you continued to drink as often as three times a week ?

I think it is no coincidence that many (maybe even most) Sinclairians Dr. Eskapa reports in his book end up Abstinent. Go back and read through the first hand stories in the later part of the book. Unless I am mistaken, all end up abstinent.

The one story that sticks out to me most of the computer guy. The story is a bit brief, but the last few paragraphs state that the individual continued to drink/get drunk on occasion after kicking the bad cravings, so ended up abstinent. This makes me think that a person may continue to get hit by the odd trigger on occasion and fall back into a bad drinking pattern for a night/day.

The other story that sticks out is the lady with the family -- I think this is the first story of the first hand stories. Remember, at the end of her story, she goes to a party and says she just doesn't want to drink because some people can handle AL, but she can't.

I will say from experience, that once the major cravings are gone, it is really easy to go days without drinking. I'm on vacation right now and while here had a five day AF run before drinking, with no problem. In the past, I'd have drank nearly ever day I was on vacation.

In summary, I think old drinking habits and un-extinguished triggers will continue to plague us on occasion, for the short term, after the bad cravings are extinguished. How long this lasts, I have no idea. Maybe 6 months, maybe a year... Who knows. To avoid these old habits and un-extinguished triggers all together, maybe Sinclairians by in large choose abstinence.

Q

Hi Elfie - great post...we should all think about this. Where do we want to end up?

I actually wrote down my goals before I started and my goal was to be in control of my drinking so that I was drinknig no more than 4 - 5 days a month and that those days would not be alone-days, but as part of a social situation and that I would not drink more than 4 units on those occassions. I feel I could do that now with little effort.

HOWEVER...I think I may actually end up abstinent at some point. I am enjoying drinking less and less...it's almost a chore when I go out now. I am doing my first Monday - Friday full AF as I went away last weekend and had much less units than pre-sinclair but more than I am comfortable with. I am not having any issues AFing this week (which is great) but I do still wonder if I needed any of the alcohol over the weekend. It just felt kind of forced. I will keep thinking about this over the week...I always assumed being abstinent would be out of the realm of possibilities but the more 'cured' I get, the more I really associate alcohol with something I don't want in my life. My cravings for it are almost completely gone - it's more the social aspect of not wanting others to feel bad if I don't drink at this point. You know? But I could use the line Q paraphrased above...I remember that section of the book in particular...

Will be interesting to see what others feel on this...

Happy:

I could cut and paste your goals as my own. To answer the original question, I think the answer is no, drinking three times a week within safe levels will not result in re-addiction once you are cured. When you drink on nal, the endorphins giving the positive reinforcement are blocked and therefore all of the positive associations you used to have of drinking are eliminated -- you can take it or leave it. If you think you want to have a drink -- out of "habit" -- and thereafter crave a drink, then by definition your triggers have not been extinguished and you are not yet cured.

The difference for me between drinking from "habit" and drinking from addiction is that if you are drinking out of pure habit, there is no craving. It's cocktail hour and you think to yourself, "I usually have a drink now" out of habit. However, once cured, you'll have that thought "I usually drink now" but with zero craving to follow through with the thought.

Let's face it: drinking now, uncured, is not a rational choice. I get loaded on the weekends and waste a full Sunday feeling worthless and sick almost every week, at least before TSM I did. Ask me right now, is the buzz I get on the weekends worth destroying at least 1/7 of my life? Answer: NO. But I'm still an addict so I do it anyway. Once my cravings have been extinguished, I'll make the same analysis: Do I want to drink really heavily and cost me my Sunday? The answer will be a resounding NO. And when I'm cured, I will probably think back on all of the days wasted and think that it's just not worth it and may very well choose abstinence. But for the same reason Happy cites, I'm not sure that will be possible for me. Two dozen people will be offended if I say no to a drink during normal, social occasions, so I think I'll continue to consume moderately during those times once I'm cured.

I simply can't imagine being AF for a week or on vacation. Reading these posts give me so much hope. To actually be AF without effort is a dream. In my imagination, it's a wondrous feeling of health, being productive, and participating in life at the greatest degree. I so want to be there.. and feel so far away from there.

Hi Q,

Figure 3 in The Book shows that people were drinking, on average, 9 drinks per week one year after starting TSM. The graph also shows that consumption of alcohol had settled at 9 drinks per week - figure 3 shows no further downard trend after one year. So, it would appear that some trial participants were not abstinent upon completion of the TSM trial.

All the best.

V.

Hi elfern,

Gosh, I find it impossible to think so far into the future. I would truly need to consult my crystal ball but it's shattered into lots of tiny little pieces because I dropped it onto concrete from a great height! Seriously though, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. From my current vantage point, I've got a long way to go before I'll be weighing up the pros and cons of abstinence over continued drinking.

Having said all that, I think you've raised a good question and it will be interesting to read others' replies.

All the best.

V.

Thanks all .
Sometimes I think the whole thing of looking further on down the road to what will be is rather futile but completely irresistable because of course we've our dreams and goals . So let's do it !
Firstly once again I see our different stages and almost felt a little guilty when as Virg said the difficulty to get an AF , but that's only for now Virgil see
it as a hope stirrer .
But I do note in what WTE says a recurring theme about the idea of never having a drink again as quite horrendous . Whenever I see any TV thing on Alc this is what people unfailingly say . Maybe this is how we see it from vantage point of the addicted , yet the refreshing surprise that keeps coming in waves is that extinction will remove that very desire , when that happens we'll feel differently . And do so already in increasing measure .
And by the by on that point , they've got all the summer beer ads out here now,
I remember last year physically turning my back on the damn thing only to be faced by the same ad at the bus stop opposite , I felt like bursting in to tears turning round and round . Today it left me quite cold .

I agree with WTE that actually most stories in the book did suggest that drinking faded in significance but still occurred . the graph stuff about 9 drinks a week also
suggests continued drinking - or at least for a year . Actually I think things get rather vague . Personally to drink occaisionally would to me be acceptable , three times a week looks like a bit of a let down ( But I'd take it anyday over how it was !!) Nick rightly says we'd not be addicted after extinction , certainly not chemically so and we'd have choice , whether a sense of dependence to habit remains to be seen how that feels .

[quote=

I hate the thought of never being able to have a few drinks with friends, enjoy a fine bottle of wine with dinner or sip a martini at sunset. And that may still be the beast talking at this point in the game.

[/quote]
This is a thought provoking topic. I agree WTE i think it may be 'the beast' at this point. I spent 10 years abstinent following treatment as a very young adult. at one level it was good- made sure my kids were conceived, etc and had their early years without the presence of alcohol in my system however i do remember my social life being a pretty crap. Then again I was a youngster in my twenties living in Ireland which as we all know has a huge drinking culture. My social life is once again not so hectic but that is a lot to do with my age and circumstances. I think i would find abstinence easier now as most of the people i socialise with now are fairly moderate drinkers. As you say WTE I also would miss enjoying a nice glass of wine with friends over dinner. I often choose not to drink- pre TSM however what i would like is to be able to make that same rational choice after one or two glasses which seems to be the point when 'the beast' wakes up in me! It would be interesting if people who had declared victory and stopped posting much were to give up dates after a year.

Definately agree with you Soulby , I'm sure people will do an anual update .
Then we'll know more and see whether the drinking through habit or feeling somehow forced (Happy ) plays less of a role and how people have learned to deal with that and other sticking points .
And how much ( rather than whether ) abstinence seems less fearful .