This topic basically was an accidental hi-jack of another thread (I get drawn in easily to this), so I thought I'd pull my posts to a new thread as it is a good conversations. The topic was basically how Naltrexone affects ones perception of normal everyday activities that release endorphines. Here is where the conversation was in the last thread:



I think we are basically saying the same thing. Nal locks down the opiate system, so it will have an effect on ones perception of activities that release endorphins. I would imagine, for example, that a long distance runner would notice a big impact on their ability to push themselves and not "run out of gas" when taking Nal. Most long distance running get a "second wind" when running, which is essentially endorphins numbing their body to the pain of wanting to stop running. Actually many hard core long distance runners claim going through a type of withdrawl when they don't go out and run really hard on a regular basis.

Now, I wouldn't call this compromising the joys of life, but there is no doubt Naltrexone will have an effect on it, which is why the sinclair method says to avoid endorphine related activities when on Nal and save them for the non-Nal days. One would be extremely naive to think that taking Nal will only block the endorphines released when drinking alcohol, but no other activities that release endorphines.

I think we're on the same page (of Eskapa's book lol)

Well, since we're getting into details about this, I can probably start talking about mirror neurons. I'm not tremendously good at explaining it all down to layman's terms, so please let me know what I need to better explain. There is a LOT of controversy over how exactly all of this works, and I've had some doctors insist that all endorphin ever does is trigger the release of dopamine, but this post describes what I've been able to piece together based on the research I've read and the direction that Dr. Sinclair has given me. I hope it makes some sense to you.

The current understanding of how our neurology works when we're making decisions is that either:

(a) our neurons can fire at full or partial strength. This is kind of like the laser on your CD burner, which can burn brightly in order to write data on a new cd, or just light up a little in order to read the data from a cd.

or

(b) there is a second set of neurons that parallels the first

In either case, One of the things that happens when we're trying to decide what to do with ourselves is we imagine ourselves doing those things. Sometimes it's in detail, sometimes it's in abstract, but it does occur at some level. When we're thinking about doing something, neurons in the area that would normally fire to do those things actually DO fire, but at a weaker strength. We get a response that tells us how much we would enjoy that activity, partially based on information from part of our mind that keeps track of how much we enjoyed it the last time. The responses aren't binary, they're relative. Things that appeal to you a little will outweigh those that appeal to you not at all.

This is what allows us to do things like imagine what it would be like to taste liver and onions ice cream without actually having to whip up a batch. As an even stranger effect, when we see someone smiling, the neurons that fire to make us smile fire anyway, and this winds up improving our mood. So smile, everyone!

The strength of that response is partially dependent on the strength of the initial signal. What endorphins do is strengthen the mirror neurons that relate to whatever we just did. When those mirror neurons fire the next time, this skews the results in favor of whatever we were doing just before those neurons fired.

There is a long standing mistaken belief that we do these things because they're enjoyable. Enjoyment is actually dopamine's role, and endorphin triggers the release of dopamine. But more important to TSM is that endorphins make something seem like a whole lot more enjoyable than it really was when you think about it later. When the endorphins really take over, those mirror neurons start sending back positive signals at the slightest provocation.

In order to get a better understanding of this, you have to go to something that's obviously not enjoyable. For instance "cutting" - the habit of slicing one's own skin for enjoyment. Here is something that's obviously not providing enjoyment or benefit, and yet people still get addicted to it because of the endorphins that it releases. Again, there are other factors involved that lead to this habit being established, but it's the endorphins that prevent a person from stopping.

So when considering the effect that blocking endorphins will have, you have to consider two things. One is the loss of dopamines, the other is the weakening of the mirror neurons. I understand that endorphins aren't the only thing that result in the release of dopamines, so possibly that is a lesser effect.

Hmm . . Eskapa discusses this concept throughout his book, including the appendices, as it relates to TSM. I'm not sure I see your point as it relates to TSM.

I have observed since we began this board that I am not one of the more 'educated' members here- by that I mean I am not good at all in research, going through data or the more technical points of the book. However fortunately for me there are a number of members who are very good at this, so I am able to fill in my gaps by their easier to understand posts, so from a layman's point who isn't good at deciphering research, my own experience of Nal and endorphine related activities is the following:

I hve been a drunk since my teen years. During my 20s I think it safe to say there were maybe on average 2 days a year when I did not drink, leading up to an almost physical and mental breakdown when I was 29, and my bad health forced me to stop for 2 years. I then met an alcoholic who was to become a very good friend, and I began drinking again.

That was 13 years ago, although I have tried many times during those years to stop again, I just couldn't manage more than a few days, or on one or two occasions, weeks at a time. During the last few years my drinking has steadily worsened- I knew it was just a matter of time before something very very serious would occur. My finances were in a bad way after I remortgaged my house 18 months ago, I had just a few thousand euros left, which I used to open a shop- for about a year previous I had had absolutely no income at all, and had to do something. Opening the shop did control me a little- when I first opened I had days that I would go to the shop very drunk, and try to serve people hoping to God they did not notice.

I managed to cut down somewhat, and was white-knuckling it through every day when Potato, SR, Lena, and RV and a few others resurrected the subject of TSM over at the MWO board. (I had previously tried it in October, but side effects had scared me and I gave up).

I decided to give it another go, and here we are!

So, as you are probably wondering, my point is- What Endorphine related activities?!! I have been a chronic drunk for years- my day was planned around my drinking. An effort was made to do the most pressing daily tasks- cleaning, shopping, walking the dogs, and that was it- the rest of the day entailed attempting to get through it and controlling the hangover to the best of my ability without getting too drunk again, and when the evening came- drinking.

I was not thinking, "Oh- I might go rock-climbing this weekend", or "A mountain bike ride sounds like a good idea", I was struggling by the skin of my teeth to make it through every day, wondering if it might be my last because I certainly felt like it would be.

Sex? Sex would be a drunken farce (drunk on my part- him unwilling because I was drunk) which I was not even sure had taken place the following morning, or something to get over as quickly as possible because I was so hungover and worried I might throw up.

It makes me very sad writing this and thinking of the years I have wasted, but the question of Naltrexone and endorphine related activities for me is completely derisory (Although I am glad for others that may not be the case). First I will use the Naltrexone to get better, then I will worry about finding some endorphine producing activities which I can enjoy.

At present the 'problem' of the Nal spoiling other activities doesn't even cross my mind!

Marbella, that was an excellent post. Many here can so identify with it. I'm amazed at a couple of the gals who do the yoga, mountain climbing, surfing, etc. on a regular basis. While I've had a number of hobbies and pastimes over the years. . .and become proficient at a national level at certain things. . .my interest and ability to participate in those things has greatly diminished in the past six years, since I began drinking again (after 20+ years of abstaining). I've long had a circle of wonderful friends, and we did things together - go to a theater, weekly breakfast get-togethers, camping, out-of-town shopping trips, etc. I've hardly seen them for the past two years as my life revolved more and more around that damned bottle of wine.

I miss my friends. I miss me. I will NOT miss this addiction once it has been reined in! I totally agree that the endorphine releasing activities can wait until the Nal has effectively de-addicted us to alcohol. (Well. . .maybe not ALL those activities. . . )

Lena, do you realize that you posted "I understand all of that, but what does it mean?"

The point of the post was that addiction is an endorphin based thing, but enjoyment is a dopamine based thing. Even if we accept the (highly dubious) idea that enjoyment is purely chemical, the two are not actually dependent on each other. I probably could have just come out and said that, but I suspect someone would have jumped my case for not providing a scientific backing for it.

Marabella, I can't say that I'm glad to hear that alcoholism has completely shut out other activities in your life. You're definitely right that, in your case, conversations about other activities - any other activities - is pointless. I am very glad to hear that TSM is working so well for you that you won't need much else. I suspect that you are representative of the vast majority of unfortunates who are addicted to alcohol, and I'm absolutely thrilled that TSM is all that you need to get better.

I think, though, that this conversation was actually about stress relief, and what to do about it. I'm probably not too far off the mark observing that alcohol is used for stress relief, and that there are several individuals on this forum who will need to find a different way of handling their stress if they're going to reduce their drinking. You aren't one of them, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from this conversation.

Dear Marella- I can really relate to what you are saying - I did not start quite as early as you, but I've been a slave to AL for so long, it doesn't even pay to figure exactly WHEN it became so out of control. The point is that it has. The only true endorphin releasing activity for me has been dancing or chasing my son around the house. (I promised myself when I was pregnant in my forties that I would not be a "drunk mommy" but I am. The longest without AL in over 15+ years was when I was pregnant). I can't even believe I ever worked out, rode bikes, swam laps etc. - it feels a lifetime ago.

Started Nal about 11 days ago - not much has happened that is good, but I've read the book at least twice and know that it is different for everyone and how could I expect a quick solution to such an ingrained condition?

Today though I started dancing around and jumping and clapping my hands with my son and wondered if I should stop because of the endorphin thing, so I slowed it down - just in case. I want to give Nal every chance whatever it takes.

I'm new here from MWO -Happy4Once encouraged to join this group which is much more helpful. Topamax was a disaster for me. Best!

It is interesting, RR, but as the weeks go by it is becoming increasingly easier for me to identify triggers- I won't go looking for old posts right now, but in pre-Sinclair and the early days of starting TSM, just about everything was a trigger. I felt happy, I would drink, I felt sad- I would drink. Someone was rude to me driving/shopping/a friend having a rough day- I would arrive home and drink.

Somehow as the weeks went by the triggers became a bit clearer- I was able to identify them and label them. Hence- I no longer felt like drinking when I felt content, or because I felt sad. There are some triggers that are harder to break than others, and I guess stress is one of them- this week I have had a bit of stress mostly with money related issues and a bad day with a client from the shop where I felt very wrongly accused (another biggie for me!) so yes, I have to work on those things still.

The good thing is TSM is enabling me to identify the triggers and work on them, whereas before it was just a case of "Oh everything's a trigger- I might as well give up!"

I do think that once addicted to using alcohol in stress situations we are very unlikely to think "Oh God- that was stressful! I better go and have sex!" or "That rude ignorant jerk really wound me up! I will go and do a sky dive!" No of course not, we will just grab the nearest drink.

I don't think I am any different here to others, but while practising TSM I am also noticing my 'issues' and trying to correct each one as it comes. My addiction to Alcohol is not purely physical, but by treating the physical side, the mental part of it also becomes possible to deal with.

Gradually I, and the others will find a way to deal with the stress thing, but I fear there is not an 'activity' to practise to deal with stress- that is where we have gone wrong in the past, thinking that there was (in our case drinking).
Yes drinking does help, because while you are dancing on a table top singing at the top of your voice, with 150 people looking on incredulously, the argument you had with a co-worker earlier in the day suddenly becomes really unimportant.
My BF (teetotaller, yes believe it or not:) does not have an activity to practise when he is stressed. He gets uptight, he might yell a bit, then he calms down and moves on. He doesnt go out cycling, or jogging, or to an online casino, he manages it without an activity to deal with it.

I believe the issue we have to deal with is actually not letting situations stress us to begin with- not what activity we will use to deal with them once we have allowed ourselves to become overly-stressed.

I hope this makes sense, if not I will try to clarify.

Hi AT!

I have read and I hope answered a few posts of yours over at MWO?

I also tried the Topa- very scary! I got blurred vision, there is a big warning on the insert about that

I wouldn't worry too much when you are having fun with your son- the only thing that can happen is that maybe you won't enjoy yourself as usual, it wont affect your progress with the drink.

I am very glad that you found us here and have started the treatment. I am only 8 weeks in, but if this is as good as it gets, I am happy