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 Post subject: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:39 am 
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Location: France
I know this exists but what exact shape does it take .
Take 1. the hair of the dog situation , which I guess is dealing with minor withdrawal symptoms that start about seven hours after a heavy session . Is this ADE ?
Or consider the long term abstinent and those who insist that it does get better ,
does this mean that at some point ADE does subside or our they lying and whistling in the dark because it actually just gets worse and worse ? As someone who never did manage more than 10 weeks I'd be interested to hear some one say what happens to craving if you stick with abstinence .

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:46 am 
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Posts: 929
Eskapa wrote a great explanation of this in his "Letter to a Concerned Spouse" on the concerned SO's topic. I'll try to cut and paste.
viewforum.php?f=4

Quote:
" It is very difficult - close to impossible - for non-addicts to appreciate
the overpowering craving experienced by those addicted to alcohol and drugs. To put
this in perspective, imagine you were deprived of water for 24 hours and
were in the desert. The thirst and craving for water would become stronger.
After 48 hours it would be unbearable. Now imagine if someone were to place
a bottle of water in front of you. Virtually impossible to resist drinking
it.

Alcoholism is at base a learned biological addiction caused by genetic
predisposition and many drinking sessions over months and years. Once the
addiction is installed into the brain and nervous system it becomes permanent and
reflexive; it is not conscious and the craving (drive) to quench the thirst is
overwhelming. Dr David Sinclair of the National Public Health Institute in
Helsinki, Finland discovered the Alcohol Deprivation Effect about forty
years ago. This means that the more an alcoholic is deprived of alcohol the
more he craves it. When they finally succumb to the craving it is usually
accompanied by drinking in a dangerous binge-like manner - this is when
accidents and fatalities are likely to occur. An alcoholic may consciously
not want to drink but the wiring or mechanism (known as the
opiodergic system in the brain) driving the addiction takes over and he
relapses. This happens to
about 85 % of all alcoholics who attempt to abstain. Their intentions are
good and at first the conscious will to abstain may keep them dry. However
as time moves on the craving increases and the flood-gates open for the
majority: they slip off the wagon. This can also be likened to dieting: if
one loves peanut butter and honey sandwiches and is on a diet it may be easy
to avoid slipping on the first of even fifth occasion the image pops into
one's mind. However, on the twenty-fifth time the image of that sandwich (or
ice-cream or chocolate) pops into the mind many of us collapse and slip off
the diet.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:00 pm
Posts: 239
Location: Friday Harbor, WA
Elfern,

I have an uncle who is/was an alcoholic and has been abstinent for about 10 years w/ no AA or other intervention. He claims he doesn't crave it at all. Others seem to do well for various periods of time but eventually fall, and fall hard.

The craving itself isn't ADE. ADE is really a phenomenon that happens when you give in to the craving - typically very heavy binge drinking.

I have no idea how to answer your question but if craving is the concern, The Sinclair Method seems to be the way to address that.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:12 pm 
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Location: France
Thankyou N101CS . It does answer the question that tsm is for me because craving is the prob . Indeed overdrinking as bingeing seems to be my pattern and as following this treatment i've had a tendancy to try to cumulate AF's as if seeking the very ADE and provoking the binge. The tendancy is loosening somewhat .I deliberately ceded on my second AF today and remarkably consumed a mere five units .

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Location: Friday Harbor, WA
elfern wrote:
The tendancy is loosening somewhat .I deliberately ceded on my second AF today and remarkably consumed a mere five units .


After more than four months on TSM what I'm finding is that it's easiest to have a little here-and-there rather than to abstain completely. Perhaps it will change but right now, if I go 3-4 days AF, I usually drink way too much (6-8 units) when I do finally have some. It's quite easy to limit myself to 2-3 drinks every other day or two, which puts me in the 10-15 per week range. I can do that forever with little worry about harm.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Posts: 64
Location: Denver, CO
Dr. Sinclair's concept of ADE is a bit difficult to understand. I had to read his book "The Rest Principle" to really get a handle on it. I'll try to explain it as I understand it. Basically what he suggests is that giving in to a craving slightly exhausts the craving mechanism. It takes a bit of time for the craving mechanism to recharge. It builds back up over time, but it does reach a saturation point. Addiction increases that saturation point, extinction decreases it.

Time will desaturate the craving, so that a person who hasn't drank in a long time will no longer notice the addiction, but if they give in to it, then it will re-saturate fairly quickly. Abstinence isn't extinction.

I don't think that "the hair of the dog" is quite an ADE thing. If I understand your use of it, that is used more as a hangover cure, isn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:04 pm 
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Posts: 426
Location: France
Hair of dog is to top up blood alcohol because minor withdrawal arrives
so I saw it as a response to craving and deprivation of alcohol .
I thought a hagover was a withdrawal symptom ?

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On tsm since feb 2009 .
3 glasses of wine a night , most nights (5/7)

Once a NALcoholic always a NALcoholic


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:25 pm 
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Location: Denver, CO
Hangover IS a withdrawal symptom, but it's withdrawal from alcohol dependence, not alcohol addiction. There are two different things going on here.

Alcohol functions similarly to the neuroinhibitor GABA. GABA is there to make sure that our neurons don't get into a positive feedback loop and kill us with seizures. That's what delerium tremens is - our bodies suffering thousands of little seizures. When we drink, our body compensates by producing less GABA. A hangover is mostly the lag time between when we've cleared the alcohol from our system, but our neurons haven't caught up with GABA production yet. It's also dehydration and a pile of vitamin deficiencies, but the GABA thing is the one that hair of the dog treats.

I won't bother explaining how the addiction side works because that's what this entire forum is for. Detox is designed to handle alcohol dependence, but it doesn't touch alcohol addiction.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:58 pm 
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Location: France
won't bother explaining how the addiction side works because that's what this entire forum is for. Detox is designed to handle alcohol dependence, but it doesn't touch alcohol addiction.
No That's fine I've a handle on that of late .

However the bit about extinction desaturating really helped bring clarity where needed . Thankyou .[color=#000080][/color]

_________________
Pre tsm 60/100 uk /wk

On tsm since feb 2009 .
3 glasses of wine a night , most nights (5/7)

Once a NALcoholic always a NALcoholic


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol deprivation effect .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:59 pm 
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Posts: 426
Location: France
elfern wrote:
won't bother explaining how the addiction side works because that's what this entire forum is for. Detox is designed to handle alcohol dependence, but it doesn't touch alcohol addiction.

No That's fine I've a handle on that of late .

However the bit about extinction desaturating really helped bring clarity where needed . Thankyou .[color=#000080][/color]

_________________
Pre tsm 60/100 uk /wk

On tsm since feb 2009 .
3 glasses of wine a night , most nights (5/7)

Once a NALcoholic always a NALcoholic


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