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 Post subject: A realistic timescale in which to see an improvement on TSM
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:23 am 
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Hi Folks,

I have been in e-mail discussion with Dr Eskapa over the last couple of days. Specifically, he made the following statement, which he has given me permission to quote here on the forum:

"If TSM does not show improvement after 6 months of meticulous adherence to the protocol then the person should try other methods ....... and not give up"

To my mind, this is a very important statement. It is an issue that has been questioned before by members of this community - for obvious reasons.

V.

_________________
Weekly Consumption
Wk01-10: 86, 98, 103, 104, 97, 92, 102, 103, 102, 107
Wk11-20: 100, 99, 100, 105, 108, 108, 89, 95, 105, 97
Wk21-30: 97, N/R, N/R, 97, 105, N/R, N/R, 107, 97, 98
Wk31-40: 93, 88, 87, 87, 91, 92, 94, N/R
UK units
N/R = Not Recorded


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 Post subject: Re: A realistic timescale in which to see an improvement on TSM
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:19 pm 
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Virgil wrote:


"If TSM does not show improvement after 6 months of meticulous adherence to the protocol then the person should try other methods ....... and not give up"

V.

Hi Virgil -- Thanks for sharing. Yes, it is very important; but as I parse it, the statement raises more questions in my mind than it answers.
-What constitutes "improvement"? Is any reduction at all "improvement"? Many who have not seen significant reduction in consumption nonetheless have reported a change in quality of life, such as reduced craving, change in attitude, and other subtle, difficult-to-quantify changes. Does this count as improvement?

-For those who should "try other methods . . . and not give up", does this mean they should continue to take naltrexone? Or abandon naltrexone in favor of other methods?

-In at least one study, Sinclair followed his subjects and found continued improvement for up to three years. Can those who show only minimal after six months expect continued improvement?

I honestly don't know the answers to these, although I have some subjective impressions, and I hope members weigh in.


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 Post subject: Re: A realistic timescale in which to see an improvement on TSM
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:15 pm 
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It seems to me that reducing it to an absolute period is wrong. I believe it has to be the number of iterations that is significant, and not the number of weeks or months on the plan.

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Pre TSM 35+ US units, 0-1 AF days per week
Declared cured at week 21
Currently 3-5 AF days per week.


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 Post subject: Re: A realistic timescale in which to see an improvement on TSM
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:44 pm 
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lena wrote:
Virgil wrote:


"If TSM does not show improvement after 6 months of meticulous adherence to the protocol then the person should try other methods ....... and not give up"

V.

Hi Virgil -- Thanks for sharing. Yes, it is very important; but as I parse it, the statement raises more questions in my mind than it answers.
-What constitutes "improvement"? Is any reduction at all "improvement"? Many who have not seen significant reduction in consumption nonetheless have reported a change in quality of life, such as reduced craving, change in attitude, and other subtle, difficult-to-quantify changes. Does this count as improvement?

-For those who should "try other methods . . . and not give up", does this mean they should continue to take naltrexone? Or abandon naltrexone in favor of other methods?

-In at least one study, Sinclair followed his subjects and found continued improvement for up to three years. Can those who show only minimal after six months expect continued improvement?

I honestly don't know the answers to these, although I have some subjective impressions, and I hope members weigh in.

Hi Lena,

Yes, I agree that Dr Eskapa's statement does raise some questions. As such, I think it's important that any questions be put to Dr Eskapa himself, preferably by e-mail via the forum. However, I consider the basic message that Dr Eskapa is conveying is to the point and unambiguous. You have raised three questions but I can only offer my personal response to one of them, as follows:

What constitutes "improvement"? From my POV, I witnessed no changes whatsoever after six months on TSM. Had I been aware of Dr Eskapa's statement at the six-month mark, I would have probably quit TSM at that point in time (or shortly thereafter).

V.

_________________
Weekly Consumption
Wk01-10: 86, 98, 103, 104, 97, 92, 102, 103, 102, 107
Wk11-20: 100, 99, 100, 105, 108, 108, 89, 95, 105, 97
Wk21-30: 97, N/R, N/R, 97, 105, N/R, N/R, 107, 97, 98
Wk31-40: 93, 88, 87, 87, 91, 92, 94, N/R
UK units
N/R = Not Recorded


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 Post subject: Re: A realistic timescale in which to see an improvement on TSM
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:49 pm 
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Posts: 579
Location: England, UK
roxygirls wrote:
It seems to me that reducing it to an absolute period is wrong. I believe it has to be the number of iterations that is significant, and not the number of weeks or months on the plan.

Hi roxygirls,

Would you mind explaining what you mean by "I believe it has to be the number of iterations that is significant"?

Thanks in anticipation.

V.

_________________
Weekly Consumption
Wk01-10: 86, 98, 103, 104, 97, 92, 102, 103, 102, 107
Wk11-20: 100, 99, 100, 105, 108, 108, 89, 95, 105, 97
Wk21-30: 97, N/R, N/R, 97, 105, N/R, N/R, 107, 97, 98
Wk31-40: 93, 88, 87, 87, 91, 92, 94, N/R
UK units
N/R = Not Recorded


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 Post subject: Re: A realistic timescale in which to see an improvement on TSM
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:22 pm 
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...


Last edited by jim on Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A realistic timescale in which to see an improvement on TSM
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:22 pm 
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He/she (whoever is at the keyboard today) means # of times drinking with naltrexone (extinction sessions) as opposed to number of days or months.

_________________
Graph Of My Units Over 182 Days

Weeks 0-26: 80, 65, 97, 90, 80, 101, 104, 83, 83, 88, 91, 83, 100, 39, 32, 71, 51, 34, 4.5, 0, 5, 3, 6, 11, 0, 0, 0u

I'll always naltreksonipillerin advance

---Lo0p (resident geek :roll: )


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 Post subject: Re: A realistic timescale in which to see an improvement on TSM
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:17 pm 
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jim wrote:
As someone who has been on NAL for seven months without much change in unit numbers this topic is of real interest. In fact I just posted about my progress. I have definitely felt progress but more a change in the way I think about alcohol and my need to be drunk than in number of units consumed. While science relies on easily measurable results, I strongly believe that focusing on the number of units consumed is just asking to be discouraged. For many people it takes six months or more for antidepressants to show results, and the results can be very difficult to measure in terms of numbers. Some of us have been drinking excessively for decades, and drinking is a way of life. That takes MUCH time to undo. I KNOW that there has been a change in my brain, even though my numbers aren't down very much. And I KNOW that alcohol affects me differently than it did seven months ago. What I need now is to add effort and intention toward sobriety instead of relying 100% on NAL to be the magic pill. I know some members will disagree but in my mind there is no magic pill. NAL works if we sincerely want to be sober or moderate. No pill can overcome our will to avoid the pain that led us to alcohol in the first place. For those (including myself) who show little reduction in consumption I ask: do we really want to be sober? Do we really want to give up our role as addicts? Are we really willing to face the pain rather than avoid? Just my belief, not a judgment of anyone.

I agree with much of what you say.
I have been on Nal since Feb 09 and there have been ups and downs in my drinking, however, I mostly have stayed at a unit intake of 10 per day.
US Units, assuming my white wine is counted in units correctly, not exactly specific.

I have, however, been able to experience definite changes in my behavior. I am not the party animal, the inebriated table top dancer, I am able to constrain myself, and this is a BLESSING!

I never felt I was the bottom of the barrel drunk, just the last one to leave the party that I really participated in.
I attribute this to Nal. It really gave me back a sobriety that I would not have had otherwise.
I do agree with you Jim, the next step for me is to use my will power, which for some reason eludes me, yes I like AL.

UNFORTUNATELY


I believe we are our own experiment, I do not believe there really is that much scientific study before us. I thank the good Dr. but I really thank all of us who have been a support for each other.

_________________
Previous units :
100 -140- for years trying to limit

TSM since Feb 09
60-70 Units
AF Oct 22, 23, 24, 25, 26
week 33- 5 units!
week 34 -20 units
Nov 2 AF
week 44 (?) 60-70
One year later Not Cured. But able to limit my units somewhat better.


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 Post subject: Re: A realistic timescale in which to see an improvement on TSM
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:28 pm 
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Posts: 112
I was rather fast in putting a time-limit of 6 months in my email to Virgil.

There should not be a DEFINITE time period..... some may take 9 months or a year ..... if that's what it take then the rewards are worth it.

However the majority should see improvement with 3 to 9 months. The clinics in Finland showed marked improvement for the majority of patients within 3 to 4 months. But others took 6 to 8 months...

If there is no clear benefit it does not mean one should give up.

The Sinclair Method is powerful for some people .... there is no single route or 'royal road' .. it's just that for the first time in addiction science there is empirical evidence that pharmacological extinction is a powerful tool against this powerful debilitating uncontrollable condition - craving alcohol and addictive uncontrolable heavy compulsive drinking.

I have not seen convincing evidence that other medications or traditional treatments are 'superior' to TSM. Yet for some, where TSM is not helping (probably 12 % are primarily not 'opiodergic' alcoholics and may be 'GABA' driven -- or other form and 10 % drop-out anyway - not unusual for any treatment) - so 78 % success rates as found by Sinclair in the Finnish clinics is pretty good going... offering light where darkness once prevailed.

Now there is hope for many more people - for the first time.


The work on gene testing to see who is most like to respond is underway. We will keep you posted.

Wishing you all a positive 2010.

Roy Eskapa


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 Post subject: RETRACTION on timescale in which to see an improvement on TS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:39 pm
Posts: 112
Being human we make errors.

Thus I retract the time-limit where folks should stop the TSM.

Nevertheless, most people see improvements - a reduction in actual drinking levels and craving - with the first 3 to 4 months.

Also, as we clearly pointed out in the book, there is a 78 % success rate .. which means others are either non-responders (12 % according to David Sinclair) and another 10 % drop-out out for other reasons (medication side-effect, choice, inability to pay for the medication,....)

Wishing you all a very positive 2010

Roy Eskapa


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