Truthfully, I fit the definition, by anyone's standards, except the fringe element who embrace abstinence as the only cure.

Let the fringe know that their higher power states explicitly that in Psalm 104:15 (King James Version) "And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart".

So by my standards and God's standards, one does not have to be abstinent to be balanced and thus cured. Therefore, I changed my signature from "De-addiction", which was entirely true, to "Cured" which fits where I am now, not addicted and enjoying the provisions that God has provided as He had intended... in moderation.

Bob

Well stated, my friend!

Personally, we may not care what others think, but there are potentially millions of outsiders that may look at our posts. And how we present these experiences makes a lot of difference. I feel that comparing our experiences against accepted standards/guidelines such as NIAAA (my favorite) is a good way to solidify our results with an accepted benchmark.

Bob

It's all semantics..."gaining control" to "de-addicted" to "cured"...I don't care. I am always happy & feel hopeful when the method works for anyone no matter what level of success achieved. Cutting back, having AF days, significant reduction in everything...seems practically "cured" in my book so don't know how to vote, if at all.

Providence's post was pretty awesome, as are the stories of everyone who has had success at this in whatever way. But then there are those of us w/ nothing. Don't know how you could have columns of Gaining Control/De-addicted/Cured vs No Progress/Some Progress/Seeing Progress...where all that overlaps, etc.

And yes, a live chat room would be fun! How would we ever keep up with that tho??!!

Should the "cured" thread be eliminated? NO. Why would we want to take away a thread that so many of us are reaching for? The thread is encouraging and anyone who reads any of the threads here knows this isn't some wick fix, that we're coming from different backgrounds and we're not all alike, so with that said please keep it.

corkit

I would like to clarify my thoughts on this point. I do not think "the cured" thread should be eliminated. However, I think the word "cure" may be misleading and not a realistic expectation for many people people who try TSM. My concern about the term is expectations: if you read the book, you basically come away thinking that no matter how much you drink, you will not give alcohol a second thought after three to four months. I think this is an oversimplification of the method and I think it sets a lot of people up for failure and/or disappointment with the method. From my experience, and from the experience of the vast majority of others on this board that I've been reading, TSM is not typically a magic pill that cures you of your addiction. Rather, it is a tool which enables us to have a gradual reduction in our cravings for alcohol. It gives us the power to say, "OK, I'm stressed, or anxious or triggered, but I am not going to have a drink. I have a choice now." But for the vast majority of us we will always deal with stressors in life that will cause us to seek refuge and, for me anyway, so far at five months in, I still think of alcohol as my first choice to deal with negative events/triggers. But now I have control over whether I reach for that drink or not. I still believe that there are many triggers out there -- and probably will be for the rest of my life -- that could trigger me into wanting to have a drink. And I am not alone in this regard. Several people on "the cured" thread have said the same thing. I believe only Bob and AJ are the two "cured" people I can think of who have not at some point caved in and had more than they should after declaring themselves cured.

The reason I'm concerned about this issue is not ego or some of the other issues that have come up. I'm concerned that one way to potentially undermine a historic and revolutionary treatment for alcoholism is by exaggerating or oversimplifying its efficacy. The "three to four month cure for 80%" does that, IMO. I am interested in establishing "real world" expectations for this method. A "success thread" that includes both the stories of "the cured" and the "de-addicted" and those "in control" would serve this end, IMO. And obviously, it is just as important for those who are having no success to also record their experiences. My goal is to try to come up with a meaningful summary of the TSM experience for all of us here in the "real world" in light of the fact that the outcomes of the studies that we are all relying on so much to shape our expectations are not being replicated on this board. Or do not appear to be, anyway. I think it may be up to we pioneers to establish more accurate expectations regarding the efficacy of TSM.

Nick, I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. I know someone first coming to this site usually we take a look at the Board index to find out just what TSM is, so maybe we need to have something more than the quicktime of Dr. Sinclair talking about tsm. Maybe something to catch the eye for a newbie when they first come giving them the real case scenario of the journey.

corkit

It would NEVER be my intention to criticize either Dr. Sinclair or Dr. Eskapa, but that said, how the heck would Dr. Eskapa ever have convinced a publisher to print, and promote the book, if he had not used the best case results, and promised a cure? They printed what was most positive, including the studies cited, and chose examples from real cases that had success. Nothing wrong with that. They got the word out, even with literally thousands of other books out there promising this and that.

I'm frankly turned off by the "Cure" in the title. It smacks of snake oil. However, no book is ever going to attract anyone when its title is "Try this stuff, it works. It will help. You may have to use every other trick known to man to "cure" your addiction but our method promises you the very best chance." I'd not buy that book.

My point is that Cure is subjective. I wish it had not been promised in the book. So let's each of us review our goals, work towards them, and let the words go. In my case, to personalize this diatribe, is control. To me that's my cure.

P.S. love Bob's reference to the biblical stuff - wine/oil + moderation = happy face!!! So true. St. Thomas Aquinas says that moderation is harder than abstinence and I think that's true - but he's definitely pre Nal

Hi BGH,

I often think the title of the book should have been The Cure for Alcoholism? Adding the question mark would have made allowance for the fact that TSM does not work for everyone. In so doing, I am of the view that it would have reduced individuals' expectations to more realistic levels. However, it doesn't sound quite so positive. At this stage, I think it's too late to change.

Just my two penn'orth.

V.

All cures for all diseases do not work for everyone.

yes, LoOp, of course you're right, but we all know what a target a cure for alcoholism is for the AA crowd - that's why I wish that were not on the cover. If I took the book into my doc he's dismiss it immediately because he's convinced (like most) that the AA model is the only one and that there is no cure. I'm by passing him completely as I can get Nal on line. We all know what a buzz word "cure" is.

Again, this forum is the bomb. Folks out there who are loath to buy the book and bring it up to the cash can get all the info here needed to get them feeling comfortable - then get the book and fill in the gaps.