That's a smart and empathetic reaction to the situation over there. I'm new here, but have spent a long time over there and a good deal of time in and out of AA over the years. When you're hanging on by a thread, you're going to defend your program tooth and nail. For years, my reality has been that one drink would lead inevitably to a multi-day binge, and my brief sober intervals were pure white knuckle exercises. I have a lot of respect for those that manage to get some level of sobriety by working a spiritual program. I couldn't do it, but I wouldn't want to say anything that might knock them off their equilibrium. That's not to excuse some of the knee-jerk negativism, but it is certainly understandable to me. If I could have stayed sober some other way, I'd probably feel the same way.

I will say thanks to Crown 88, Loop, and some of the others who appeared on the board over there and inspired me to try this. It helped me a lot.

Groucho

Good to see you here my friend...I hope TSM is working for you...yep I was programmed the same from AA one drink will lead me right back to where I was - hell. It is true without naltrexone. With TSM I have not been drunk now in a hair over 2 months...whiskey is done I can't drink it, recently had some wine also made me ill, but I was never a wine drinker. The only thing I drink now is beer is and never go over 4...average is 2.

Hope TSM works for you like it has for many.

Thanks amigo. The amazing thing for me is how little I want it. Every other attempt I've made to stop or cut back has been pure white knuckles, ending in a dive back into the deep end. Even on a half dose, my physical cravings have been minimal, and based on my one experiment I'm pretty confident my next drink will not send me on a six week binge. I really feel more hopeful about this than I have in a long time.

Groucho -- Thanks for your thoughtful input to the dialogue here.

Did you hear about TSM from posts on soberrecovery?

I visited there exactly once but I just don't have the stomach for it. I agree that a few brave souls, showing the sensitivity you describe, might just strike a chord with someone ready to consider alternatives.

I believe that sensitivity includes accepting the reality that anyone whose posts are inconsistent with the mission of that board is subject to sanctions.

Hi Lena - I was seeing a psychiatrist last year for issues relating to anxiety, depression and (not coincidentally) alcohol use. He repeatedly recommended Naltrexone as a possibility, but I wasn't ready to try it. I read several posts by Crown88, among a few others, over on SR in early January which interested me enough to reconsider and go back to ask for a script. So far, I am extremely grateful I did.

I've been on and off at SR for a long time, and for a year or so was very active on the board under a different user name around 2004. I frequently get frustrated with the tone over there myself, and have a few good friends who were banned, but I do appreciate the fact that for the most part that crowd is on a sincere hunt for genuine sobriety. If someone needs to believe in a spiritual solution to get sobriety, I'm 100% in favor of that for them and wouldn't dream of saying anything to undermine it. It just didn't work that way for me. Maybe if my bottom had gotten low enough, it might have, but I am very glad to have found an alternative path.

With only about a week sober on Nal, I'm not the guy to hold myself out as a model over there, but I do plan to remain active and talk honestly about my experience with it, for better or worse. Very glad to be here, too, where the conversation is a little more open minded about a medical solution.

Groucho -- First of all, I truly hope you're reading and learning all you can about TSM. Although Crown and a couple of others here experienced immediate success, most of us find our drinking goes back up for a few weeks after an initial "honeymoon" of a few days. If you search the board for posts about this, you'll learn what to expect and not be disappointed if it does happen.

As for soberrecovery, my view is that it's not just about individual members there, although the concept of TSM surely must be unsettling to many. When we first started the intense disagreement on this board about what, if anything, we should be doing over there, I poked around a little. I noticed the site's ad page copyright was held by "The Mulligan Group." Here's their story:
The Mulligan Group provides marketing, financial and compliance services to the addiction treatment industry.
Our industry- leading products and services include SoberRecovery®, the largest source of referrals to treatment centers with over 130,000 clients served every month. [my emphasis].
Mulligan also provides a complete service for new treatment facilities or existing firms that want to radically change their business model.

It's right there. On the SR home page, top left, there's a button, "Advertising." on that page, at the bottom, the copyright info is a link to the above text.

So you see, the very purpose of soberrecovery is to lure struggling alcoholics and addicts into participating on their site so that when they (inevitably) fail, a pricey rehab clinic is just a mouse click away. Its purpose is not to serve the members who post but rather to engage in the most cynical exploitation of them I can fathom.

A treatment that requires a paperback book and a cheap generic med -- with an 80%+ success rate -- must be viewed by them as anathema.

I'm glad we "netted" you through Crown's efforts. I hope some brave souls continue to venture over there and post to their hearts' content until they are banned. I just hope nobody expects a warm welcome from their vigilant moderators.

Thanks Lena - I've read most of the more recent posts and saw a number of references to that trend. Candidly, I don't consider my program to be TSM, and that's not how it was recommended by my doc. I'm really looking for abstinence. My history is such that I always eventually give into cravings, and almost immediately find myself right back in the ditch. I'm looking at Nal like a set of training wheels on a bicycle, to help get me rolling without alcohol, and not a tool to rewire my brain. I do appreciate the reality check though. Here's hoping it continues to work as well as it has so far. If I really thought I was looking at six months to a year of continuing to drink the way I have been, I think I'd go out of my mind.

I'll pass on taking a position on SR's mission. I'm sure you're right that there is a marketing aspect to the site, but I'll accept and give support wherever I can find it. I've got a thick hide and a gentle demeanor, so I expect I'll be able to hold my own.

I'm all for freedom of thought and understand that you will follow the instructions of your doctor. That being said, study after study has shown that naltrexone used with instructions to abstain is a recipe for failure. Study after study has shown that by drinking through triggers while on naltrexone, your addiction is extinguished. Your brain is literally rewired such that things that once made you want to run to the liquor cabinet no longer make you think of alcohol. For example, my mother was just hospitalized for three days after an accident and the thought of coping with my worry by drinking never entered my mind. Eight months ago, before TSM, I would have drunk myself into oblivion. So, you can try naltrexone as a craving reducer. If and when it doesn't work over the long-term, have confidence that the ultimate way the studies have shown that you reach your goal of abstinence is by drinking through cravings while on naltrexone.

Oh holy ****. They're fleecing these desperate people. I gotta say, that really, really pisses me off.



Well said. Oh man. That is soooo wrong.

-Ned

I feel very strongly about this subject and appreciate all competing viewpoints. However, it will be hard for me to tone down my dogmatism regarding this subject.

First, the biggest problem I have with AA is that their mission is not my mission, or millions of others for that matter suffering from alcoholism. Their mission is not mere sobriety. Their position is that one must have a "spiritual awakening" that basically alters a person's viewpoint to an entirely spiritual/religious perspective. Argue with AAers and they will frequently say, "There is no pill to cure alcoholism. But even if there was one, I wouldn't take it. My goal is not mere sobriety, but a spiritual awakening." This infuriates me and is nothing more than a thinly veiled religious crusade. In fact, the founders of AA were actually born-again Christians whose original goal was saving souls. However, that went over like a whore in church so they toned it down to "a higher power" to make it more palatable to the general public and to conceal their true motive of saving souls. My goal is not a spiritual awakening or to be saved. My goal is to drink safely or not at all. And its one I have reached thanks to the miracle drug called naltrexone and TSM.

Further undermining the current AA stance that sobriety is the only way is the absolutely ABYSMAL success rate of AA recovery. They used to keep stats but stopped because the numbers were so low -- roughly 5% after multiple relapses. The NIAA's current estimate is roughly 10-15%; absolutely atrocious by any measure and again includes multiple dangerous relapses. IN LIGHT OF AA'S DISMAL AND EXTENSIVE HISTORY OF NOT HEALING PEOPLE -- AND IN LIGHT OF THE DEVASTATING CONSEQUENCES OF FAILURE, I.E., A PAINFUL LIFE FOLLOWED BY A PAINFUL DEATH -- THERE SHOULD BE A MASSIVE WORLDWIDE SEARCH FOR ALTERNATIVE TREATMENTS TO AA. If I am a doctor and am healing my patients at 5 or 10%, I'm not going to sit there and defend my atrocious record by denigrating all viable alternatives. I could and should be actively looking for something that works.

And by all measures naltrexone and other drugs DO WORK. And the AA mentality that basically refuses to acknowledge its existence -- The Betty Ford Clinic does not even tell patients that a medical treatment exists -- is borderline NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE in my humble opinion. If AA and its tenets were simply passive and not interfering with other viable options, I would have some tolerance for them. But the fact is the AA "hocus pocus" mentality of a spiritual cure is denying millions of people in desperate need of a life-saving cure. I think that's criminal and I am going to dedicate a great deal of my remaining years touting viable medical treatments and exposing AA for the DESTRUCTIVE force that it remains.

I welcome alternative opinions on this very important matter. But in my opinion AA is literally killing people by denying sick people information and access to medicine that will literally save their life. It's criminal.