Howdy, everyone.

I have introduced myself in another thread, where there's quite a bit more background on my particular situation.

I'm a former big drinker and have been mostly AF the past two years. In that time, there was one multi-day bender, a few nights just out of reach of moderation, and a handful of nights of moderation. I'm going to say something like 5-7 nights....

Again, I don't want to rehash all of that you can read the details in my other thread if you like. I want to focus on my questions and practical application and/or experiences....

I have a few questions:

1) Can I use NAL with a pretty low number of units of C2H6O? Like 2-3 beers of 5% ABV? Even if I was formerly a big drinker of say 10-30 units a night/day?

2) As the "pharmacological extinction" occurs, would my tendency to have alcohol withdrawal begin to subside? Is that a typical benefit of TSM and NAL?


Regarding Q1, I used to drink quite a bit, but being a big little man, that number of units wasn't enough to have me falling down drunk. Quite the opposite, I usually had probably 15 units on weeknights and was pretty functional on that. More on the weekends depending. I have no interest in drinking to those levels, at all. But I am interested in moderation, and in the curative state of TSM. I want to know from someone who has been there, will it take longer to get there since I would not be "drinking as you normally do" per the book? Would it not work at all?

Regarding Q2, If I drink too much these days, and then cease, I will have withdrawal symptoms. I don't have any interest in drinking every day, so I know that makes me peculiar. I want to keep my drinking with NAL to moderate levels. I'm interested to know, however, If I did over-imbibe, as we sometimes do, does NAL have the effect of reducing the withdrawal symptoms as the pharmacological extinction progresses?

Thanks, I'm trying to keep this post short so as not to dilute it's purpose. Thanks to all for this wonderful resource and for sharing information that can hardly be found elsewhere.

Zeke.

"1) Can I use NAL with a pretty low number of units of C2H6O? Like 2-3 beers of 5% ABV? Even if I was formerly a big drinker of say 10-30 units a night/day?"

Yes. Or any.

"2) As the "pharmacological extinction" occurs, would my tendency to have alcohol withdrawal begin to subside? Is that a typical benefit of TSM and NAL?"

Depends on how far you drive it. Nal-overs are legend. Can you binge past the Nal, I'm fairly sure you can and others have indicated so, but you will have still had an extinction session and will be one step closer to your choice of how much alcohol you want in your meatbag.

Regarding Q1, I've never binged, but I'll attempt an answer if nobody else offers and you would like to hear my POV. Has to do with ADE.

Regarding Q2, Nal I've seen no evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) that Nal eases withdrawal symptoms, rather the opposite. You would do well to worry about this, as it sounds to me like ADE may well pull you towards another binge. I know you don't expect to binge, but nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition either. It's been fairly well shown that this is driven by processes that are not governed by reason. As in eating Reason and Logic for lunch. When it's not busy making you pour another drink, that is.

"Thanks to all for this wonderful resource and for sharing information that can hardly be found elsewhere."

As do I. It's really priceless, well beyond value. Again, welcome back! TSM, Nal and your determination will take you to the place of choice that you aspire to.

Zeke, I came to TSM 11mo sober. And prior to that I had been largely sober for 6mo. I'm a stage 5 alcoholic, but now have an organic control over my drinking thanks to NAL. I suffer no compulsions or cravings any longer. In a typical week I have about 4-5 drinks... usually 1/day. I could take it or leave it, but feel it's important to have extinction episodes in order to further deaddict myself. I'm now two months into this experiment.

In another thread you mentioned a desire to feel more 'normal'. I, too wished for this and believe I have achieved it. We'll never be normal, but more normal is agreeable. Hth.

Thanks Joe.

I'm looking forward to just getting the monkey out of my brain some if possible, and being able to enjoy the experience of a cold beer among friends if I want. But above all, the constant static in my mind, the reminder and the triggers and the white knuckling it, I'm really sick of it, as most of us are right before we fall off the wagon.

I'm sort of surprised, that the deaddiction process would not manage to ease withdrawal symptoms. Afterall, they are in some way what compels you to drink. So if I'm being de-addicted while I follow TSM then.....

Here's a scenario...... the book says, take NAL one hour before drinking, then drink as normal..... If I were to do what was "as normal" before I quit, that would be as I said, from 10-30 units (which would have been an all day all night session for me to get to 30) and then what? You can't just stop drinking after that as an alcoholic without withdrawal, and so..... I don't recall the book really paying much attention to this.

Had I started TSM before I realized I was over the line, it would have been different. I could drink like a retard, go to work at 6am, and I could make it till 5pm OK. But after that, I'd have withdrawals so I wouldn't have been able to wait till the next evening before drinking.

NOW, I realize that NAL itself will NOT prevent withdrawal - so maybe I need to clarify that. But after months of extinction events, wouldn't my brain begin to relent and sort of move back to the pre-addicted state as described in the book?

So that if one did binge maybe they wouldn't be in a bad way as before?

As an engineer, I feel the need to know the ins and outs of a process before I get into it. Without NAL I know what to expect, but some of what you wrote was a little contrary to what I gleaned from the book.

I want to make sure I understand what you're driving at.

Thanks!!

Naltrexone will absolutely help in your withdrawal. If an alcoholic his strong enough (most are not) they can drink their way through withdrawal by the process of weening. So if for example you are a 15 unit a night drinker then take a period of one week and drink 15, then 13, 10,9,7, and so on down to none. It's possible, you still suffer but no where near as bad.

But with Naltrexone it simply does it for you and since it doesn't trigger the opiod response it is much safer, faster and more effective then straight up weening down. I went from 15 drinks a night to my first experience with TSM down to 7 the first night, 3 the second and never looked back. Under normal conditions I would suffer withdrawal without a doubt.

It's probably the most humane way to ween off alcohol and avoid withdrawal. I remember reading in Eskapa's book that in fact in some cases it's too effective. There was a man who was a very chronic 24 hour a day drinker who instantly responded to TSM and reduced his drinking so bad that he woke up suffering from DT's. In that case he had to go drink just to get back to a safe level and continue the process of weening.

Ocean's got it right, the trick is to let the Nal help you taper it down at a rate that works for you. Nal also often helps you cap the quantity per drinking session, but I wouldn't advise, for instance, going from 30 units to 3 units, which probably wouldn't happen anyway unless you had a Nal-over that made you so sick that you couldn't manage to get any down the next day (from what I've read). But I'm a daily drinker, Ocean is the binge expert here.

What makes me fear for you is the Alcohol Deprivation Effect. From what you've posted earlier, it seems that you always start out abstinent, then you have one, over days that progresses to a few, then as time goes on you end up in a full blown binge. That's classic ADE and what's so dangerous about abstinence. It's almost like a rubber band that only lets you get so far, then snaps you back into binge-ville, even worse off than you were before. I'd advise you get the Nal in place to shield you and start leveraging your drinking into Pharmacological Extinction sessions so you weaken that rubber band and eventually, using the Golden Rule, free yourself of that tether entirely. Then you will be to the point where you can decide if you want to abstain entirely or drink in a manner that's under your full control. If you opt for the latter, then always use the Golden Rule and get that Nal blockade in place so you don't start "re-learning" the addictive drinking behavior.

Hey Guys

Sorry about the delay, been koo koo at work as usual and I was trying to process what you both wrote.

I think I want to restate my question about withdrawal. I get it completely, that NAL helps a drinker to "taper off". But that is not what I mean when I ask if TSM can help lessen withdrawal symptoms.

What I'm getting at, is will the threshold of alcohol consumption whereupon I get withdrawal symptoms become somewhat lessened as the pharmacological extinction occurs?

Lessened doesn't sound right.

Let's say that I can drink 4 beers and not have any ill effects of withdrawal. Let's say that, if I drink 10 beers though, by noon the following day my body is telling me it wants a beer.

But this is me without TSM, I have had no NAL, I've had no extinction events.

Will the process of extinction as outlined by TSM work me backward from this, such that if I was to have a few more than I should, that I would not suffer that feeling of withdrawal the next morning?

Does this make sense?

What I have read seems to tell me that thru NAL + drinking, I can become de-addicted - this to me means that I should not suffer the withdrawal symptoms that I do now once I have gone down the path of TSM. I'm trying to figure out if that is the case.

If what TSM does is make it easier to taper off, wean off, and stop drinking, then I'd say the words "de-addicted" should not be used. Not that this is a small feat, don't get me wrong.

But I have taken the meaning of what I've read to mean that my dopamine superhighway will return to the country road it once was, and that as long as I take the NAL before I drink, it should stay that way.

I don't need help tapering right now because I'm very nearly a non-drinker at the moment. What I'd like to do is work my way backwards out of this addiction state so that I have more control over my thoughts (the cravings) and the weird feeling that I'm the guy that can't drink.

It's not just because I want to drink, I just don't want to feel so different from everyone else. I want to be more normal....

Zeke

Joe, thanks for responding.

Well, you know some things can't make it thru the keys to a true understanding.

Where you say I "always start out abstinent" I can count that out on one hand, pretty nearly.

I only had one full blown bender since late January of 2014. I was having an enormously difficult time of life then, I quit drinking when I needed it the most!! I had lost my job (not due to alcohol....it was a contract job, but I was jobless nontheless), been ripped off by friend for $30K+, lost a dear friend, discovered another one dead by self inflicted gunshot, moved across the country leaving my home of 15 years and left many dear friends including my band when we were just starting to make it..... It wasn't the most profound loss of my life, but it all added up to some really extreme circumstances..... I began filing for bankruptcy in May of 2014. I was suffering a mental breakdown for sure. The second one in say 3 years...

So that time I had a bender I wasn't even trying to be good, I just wanted to know nothing and experience that reckless release from real life that only a 5 day festival party can provide. And I paid for it.

But since then, I've only drank a handful of times. New years pre-eve, I didn't really "binge", though I'm sure by most peoples standards I did. Heck that would have been a worknight a few years ago and I'd have been up at 5am feeling fine. But I had withdrawals this time. Not bad, but bad enough that by noon I needed a beer. And so I nursed maybe 5 beers over 10 hours NYE, and had a few new years day, and I haven't had one since.

You are right to worry about the ADE, but you have to understand a few things.....

My life is much different now. I have taken my life back, not just from booze but from the "friend" that ripped me off and ruined my finances, and a year of hopelessness whereupon I was beginning to wonder if there was much point to living. I have a great job, that's going well, and I have some other health issues that bring me pause.

In other words, I don't want to blow it, I don't have any reasons right now that I would want to go blotto and then spend the next week coming back to earth. Quite the contrary, I just want to stop hiding at home (which is what I do when I'm not working) and start living my life a little again. TSM promises moderation and that is what I want. I do not want to screw it up.

But I also know that on my way there I won't be immune to overdoing it. I want to know what I'm doing before I do it. And that's why I'm trying to figure it out.

I think you both have answered Q1, I understand that with NAL I can enter into this with moderation from the start, and still get benefits of NAL working me back out of addiction.

But Q2, the answer is either "NO, it will never help truly deaddict you so that you could drink a moderate ++ amount with no withdrawals" or "YES, pharmacological extinction will make you less susceptible to withdrawal if you happen to drink too much.

I don't think I'll have very frequent NAL use or "extinction events" because I don't plan to drink alone at home anymore. This is pointless, and had I never done it in the first place I would not be addicted. So it would only be social and family events, perhaps some business dinners which can be the most painful of all. Or to use having a beer or two a reason to get out of the house, meet some new people, and begin this deaddiction process at the same time.

Thanks again to all, you guys are great.

Zk

Hmm. Well, I'd composed a post, but you'd finished before me, so I'll go ahead and paste it in below. I think it may answer your question, but let's see what you think:

**************************************************************************

Zeke -

Alch withdrawal is mainly about GABA levels, as I understand it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16952998

Nal doesn't do anything about GABA or Glutamine, but it would, for instance, help someone taper down from a high level of consumption, but you have to consider drinks/hr. in there, that person's drinking style, their function level on alch, etc. to know if that would be a good way for them to deal with withdrawal. In the example you gave, you would simply take your Nal the next day at 11am before you went to lunch and had a pint. That evening, the Nal might knock down the quantity that you drink or not and you would play it accordingly. You'd have your Nal with you at work and if you started craving, take the Nal an hour before. Eventually, you would slip below the level where you needed a drink with lunch. So no, Nal won't keep your hands from shaking or withdrawal anxiety from cropping up, that's not the neurochemical it works on.

Have you read The Cure for Alcoholism? It explains about Nal and the opioid receptors, lists studies you can peruse, etc. It's only $12, so about the price of a half-rack.

Now, wrt anxiety, if you flood your brain with 10 beers worth of GABA agonist, then you might well have anxiety issues the next day, especially if you need to hit that beer at lunch to keep people from seeing your hands from shaking, underlying issues aside. We're talking more of a delta from the norm here. But if you're talking about taking Nal as a prophylactic against withdrawal after a bender, no. If you follow the Golden Rule and take it at 11am so your lunch turns into an extinction session, you'll likely still need the beer, but you may have to choke it down because you don't especially WANT the beer.

That being said, I think I'm getting a little bit better handle on your question.

If you're an occasional drinker that perhaps drinks too much (for you, whatever that may be) at the odd party or event, I don't know if Nal is the med for you. You could try it and see, as you'd probably want to know if you were going to have side effects. It wouldn't do to get to a party and pop one then have a rotten evening or not be able to drive home. But for such an occasional basis, I don't know if it would be quite what you're looking for.

If consume somewhat more than that, like you drink most days of the week and would like to get better control overall including at events, it might be worth your while. Many that take Nal per TSM do end up as social drinkers.