I feel qute strongly that it is terribly unfair -- especially to the members who post, but also to River, to suggest anyone got a bad batch of nal based on nothing more than a hunch. Already we have the start of panic. Unless someone wants to go to the trouble and expense of getting a lab test done, I would suggest we not jump to such conclusions.

We have plenty who are struggling who get their nal by prescription (Virgil, houtx come to mind).

River has been used by hundreds if not thousands at MyWayOut for a variety of meds. I searched high and low for any complaint about them on that board and found not a single one. I also checked their supplier, and it is Sun Pharma, a highly reputable manufacturer. I have no reason to defend River other than to advocate for basic fairness.

I simply cannot have any reference to alcohol problems in my medical record. River and the other reputable on-line pharmacies provide an alternative for those of us in this position. TSM would not be a viable option for many on this board were it not for River or alldaychemist.

I got close to a cure, then saw my consumption go back up, on the same batch.

It's too late now to unring the bell.

There are literally thousands of variables that impact progress under TSM that vary from individual to individual. Until there is some real evidence that there is a "bad batch" of naltrexone coming from a highly reputable company, I agree with Lena: this is a factor that may cause general panic on the board with no real evidence to back up the theory. I don't order from River, but if I did, it wouldn't hesitate to keep ordering from them until a test confirms a "bad batch."

I'm fairly certain, based on past experience, that it will be more than one or two.

"Benzos may hamper TSM" turned into something quite different.

Then there was the sweet tooth thing.

So I felt the need to express myself strongly.

I am not looking forward to this.

To me, describing a subjective reaction to naltrexone is even less than "a hunch." Every day I take naltrexone and every day the subjective experience is different for me. It entirely depends upon my mood, how much I've had to eat, how much I drank the night before, the time of day, whether I'm tired or alert, whether I've exercised or not, etc., etc. And I've taken the same nal from the same company the entire time. For me to try and draw any conclusions about my subjective experience on naltrexone would be even less accurate than a hunch. Just my two cents.

So far I've mainly been taking Nodict from River via SunPharma (sp?) in India, and all the improvements and 'glimmers' I have seen so far that have me convinced about TSM for me have come from those tablets.

That said, the possibility of a production 'error' is not impossible, and personally if I bought the same drug from the same source and was sure it was different I would be straight on the phone to the supplier (or in this case the company that sold it to me).

Tonight as an experiment I tried the alternative I have, Nalorex (via UK prescription). It seems a little bit more 'subtle' somehow, perhaps a bit weaker as I have more urge to drink, but that could very well just be in my mind as the tablet is smaller and a more neutral colour (the Nodict is big, sunset orange, and tastes FOUL if taken in halves). Or it could just as easily be because I am getting over my heavy cold and my drinking urges are returning to 'normal' (lol).

As Nick says, there is so much at play here for us, it's hard to tell at times. But, if I were certain something was amiss, or even pretty sure, I definitely would contact the vendor.

Not to rush to the aid of a large drug company, but I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents (2.17 cents Canadian). I recently started on Nodict from River and my initial side effects were similar to what has been described by other people on this board, some of which I believe are taking brand name Naltrexone). Also as an example only, WTE mentioned in her progress update that she was dropping back from 100mg as the side effects were too much. This leads me to believe that the Nodict from River is probably ok - in that it seems functionally potent, and its side effect profile appears to be similar to the name brand stuff.

It is possible that there are differences in the way the drug is compounded/manufactured by the different suppliers. This could affect the speed at which the drug dissolves and enters the blood stream - which is only one explanation for any perceived differences between brands. Also, length of usage and the dosage changes described in the above posts can't be ignored in this discussion. It is entirely possible, indeed it is quite likely in this case, that River's formulation is fine and there is no "bad batch".

Obviously we are all anxious about this. Personally, I am nervous that the Nodict/Nal is not working for me. I am only 2 weeks in, but I have not really noticed any difference in sensation while drinking; however, Nodict from River is clearly pharmacologically active (side effects = effects), and If Nal works, then my guess is that Nodict from River will as well.

River Nal is fine. River Nal is fine. River Nal is fine.

There is not a bad batch floating around out there, I'm just in a bad situation right now and felt it was time to switch to a prescription to rule out the possibility of less than potent online medication. It in no way means that everyone who is experiencing delays or whatever should suspect their meds. I disagree with the implication that I am operating on less than a hunch or having some type of subjective response to nal...but I don't really care to take the time nor do I have the patience at the present moment to argue with either Lena or Nick, so I'll just say it is correct that I have not had my meds tested yet and I have no concrete proof so you would be very silly to panic.

I will say that ironically this entire thread would have died away nicely had Lena & Nick not felt the bizarre need to highlight it with their typical 'strong' posts.

I would like to echo Happy's sentiments.
Further i feel a bit fed up that a thread i started to learn from and explore each others 'emotional' experiences in relation to reduced drinking has been hi jacked in to a discussion/defense of drug companies. I think the whole issue of exploring the impact of reduced consumption/abstinence on the psyche is an important one and perhaps its just my profession but i believe we are more complex than rats and that the human psyche/spirit can not simply be reduced to a series of neurotransmitters

I completely agree, soulbythesea, perhaps the mods could split the off-topic stuff into another thread (or isn't there one already about River/different Nal from different sources) as your thread idea is such an interesting and potentially-valuable discussion?

Otherwise we can just go back to topic?

Good points Trout. Don't be nervous -- many of us do not have a different subjective experience while drinking on naltrexone. Also, extinction occurs behind the scenes at a subconscious level. You'll be all right.

My best,

Nick

BTW, my family vacations in Nova Scotia quite a bit -- Sandy Cove, two hours from Halifax.

EDIT:

I cross posted with Happy and Soulby. Soulby, I entirely agree that we aren't rats and that our emotions could and should be discussed more on the board. (One of the many reasons for my detailed progress reports is that you can't really report what it's like to recover from addiction without a detailed description of your feelings/emotions.) I am the son of two talk therapists and was raised with a full appreciation talk therapy. I also am a believer in single payer health care and despise our current, corrupt health care system that has been taken captive by HMOs and big pharma companies. But to me detailing our emotions is an entirely different issue from the the drug issue. Lena and I are not defending drug companies -- I'd be the last person to do that. We are just trying to prevent unnecessary panic that this board is subjected to on a regular basis, often for no reason whatsoever other than a person's understandable anxiety about TSM. Happy, I understand your anxiety about the increased drinking and do not wish to stifle any honest discussion about your experience. I am just emphasizing what you pointed out yourself: there are many, many factors that impact TSM progress apart from a potential and highly speculative "bad batch" of naltrexone that, if true, could basically ruin the lives of several people on this board. And when the net result of such speculation is the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, then those other factors need to be emphasized. And please note, no where here is anyone telling you to keep your viewpoints to yourself; feel free to express yourself but understand that if you do and it affects others in a potentially highly negative manner, counter-points will be raised. (And, I might add, that the subject of the "bad batch" was not dying on it's own. Since your speculation of a "bad batch" there have been numerous posts and PMs from panicked people that TSM isn't working for them because of the feared "bad batch.") And the decision to respond to this issue was not made lightly -- Lena and I discussed it before posting because our goal is not to protect drug companies or stifle conversation but to prevent a general panic based upon the highly subjective experience of one person, who herself freely acknowledges that numerous other factors are in play. There is a balance that needs to be struck on this board between the needs of the many and the needs of the individual and we are just trying our best to strike the proper balance. Sometimes it's hard to do so without ruffling feathers and I truly apologize if we offended anyone with our observations. All of that being said, I'm definitely ready to let this subject die on the vine and I'm sure Lena is as well. And again, Happy, I have no interest in contesting your experience or offending you, I'm just trying to prevent panic, as you yourself acknowledged could result from such an observation.