Morning, BV.

I quote you: "DTW, well, we *choose* to drink. So we can choose *not* to drink as well, which seems to be 10x easier with this drug."

BV, if that's true why the hell don't we? I mean we take the drug, at least some extinction occurs so we can slow down, but many of us keep drinking.

There was a woman, of course nameless, who posted here for months and months who took naltrexone, then she switched to baclofen, then back to naltrexone and whenever she felt that "meh" moment she would just go ahead and drink "because she wanted to have that extinction occur". I think she finally gave up because "nothing worked for her." Of course that's her business and who am I etc., but gee doesn't that *choice* to stop if that's the goal finally have to be made, as Android described it.

The other night when you went to the liquor store and found you'd missed closing time why didn't you just go home? (tough-love moment alert!) I mean you had yourself all set up with the ice in the cup and all, and you were determined to extinguish (drink) no matter what. You had a "meh" moment but you drank anyway. It was a perfect AF night too but you *chose* to drink.

What am I saying? I guess *for me* it's time to stop pissing around as I have been doing and just stop. Period. I think I'm a tiny bit like you. I want to know the psychology behind what I do. You've done the reading and pointed out some of the Coles Notes for us - thanks. But heck if that's all it takes: I choose not to drink, and thanks to naltrexone, it's easier now. That's what we might want to choose, no?

And by the way thanks for the into to Baumeister. Found a talk he gave on his Self-Control stuff - very interesting. And a hoot to learn that Obama only wears grey or blue suits to save his choice/decision making energy for "the big ones." Gave me a laugh. Isn't there a scene in The Fly where Jeff Goldbloom (sp?) opens his closet to reveal dozens of dark blue suits?

Babs

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All of what you say is yours to say, but I disagree that it's betraying TSM to have an AF night if you don't feel like drinking, even after 8 days on naltrexone. That just seems silly to me. Are you going to drink every damned night for three months whether you feel like it or not, and then have an AF night if you feel like it because that's when the *time* for extinction is up? Because that's what it says in THE BOOK? Or will you wait 6 mos? Or 10? Or 12?

Listening to your body would seem to me a better way. I've been reading lots on the Cured List. Granted many were further along, but to a man they say to listen closely to that little voice that says, hey I don't really feel like a drink....I think in your case with so many years sober in your past you may have a faster cure coming. You know what to listen for, and you know what months and years of sobriety feel like.

As you said, this time it is so much better and easier because of TSM. BV, behind all the fancy talk I hear you wanting sobriety very much. Grab it every opportunity you can.

I'm being so frank because I won't be around much, and then not at all, very soon. I can feel abstinence right around the bend for me. I've been through a lot lately in my head, and there have been some very patient, friendly people here to help. But the choice is mine, as we said earlier.

Here, if the past is any guide to the future, when one is as frank as this the more gentle freak out and call Frank a nasty, bitter person But geez louise don't be tied to the protocol so much that you don't grab what's good as it goes by.
Babs

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I agree with Babs... Take the AF over anything else no matter what. I want to stop drinking and unless I choose AF I can't achieve that outcome.

But I will follow the rule Nal + 1hr each time I think I'm going to want to drink. Going to want to drink does not mean I can't choose to change my mind before I drink. Isn't choosing not to drink mean some type of extinction is occurring? Or by the simple fact I chose mean extinction did not occur.?

I get the science at the ten thousand foot level but I don't care to know about the rats daily struggles or their psychology - I have a hard enough time figuring out why I do what I do - gees......

Rich

Well, BV, you are absolutely correct in sticking to your personal plan. You've done your homework on this and you certainly know what you're talking about regarding TSM, and all the *choice and decision making* stuff. I wish you well in this, and all your endeavours.

For me it is time to say goodbye. I don't have much to contribute and I feel at times the board becomes, for me, like an AA meeting.

As I said previously I've been pissing around long enough. This is my third try at TSM. I believe naltrexone has done its work and the train has slowed enough for me to jump off without injury, as Android would have it. In my previous attempts I simply lacked the courage to become abstinent. I could not envision myself that way. Things have changed for me this year - I'm that much older, and wiser, and I've made some personal changes that are allowing me to see reality...hoo boy!

It's been great reading your story as it unfolds. God Bless you and Our Lady keep you.
Babs

Buena Vista,
I've just logged on with the specific intention of commenting on you're posts. I've been meaning to say hello and welcome for ages and with all the interesting discussion going on with Babs about AF days I decided that I really must getting typing!
However, all your posts have been deleted...what's going on? Is everything ok? I'm hoping that you've just decided to move them to a different section.
Hope all's well.
Ruth.

Hi, Ruth. I have been overly confessional in my posts, and for professional and personal security reasons I'm dialing it back. It would be straightforward to hack this site and identify me, based on the level of detail I was presenting. Thank you for your interest and care. In regard to TSM, I am extremely pleased so far.

Ok, that makes sense. I have a tendency to expect the worst (a therapist might call it catastrophizing) and can sometimes jump to the wrong conclusions. I'm aware that there may be some quite fragile people amongst us, and I just wanted to check you were ok.

As I said, I've been wanting to say hello and welcome for a while. I am very interested in your posts and I am really pleased that the method is working well for you. I have to agree with you on the subject of drinking,extinction and alcohol free days. I too am of the understanding that alcohol must be consumed in order for extinction to take place. That doesn't mean that we have to go overboard...bingeing isn't encouraged...but the book says to drink in the way and in the circumstances that you normally would. Over time, we will naturally find that our interest in alcohol wanes and we will drink less. At that point a decision can be made to avoid or moderate alcohol. The initial "honeymoon" period that many of experience in the first few weeks shouldn't be confused with real extinction. Escapa says as much in his book
" Be alert that, even very early in your treatment, you may occasionally experience a surprising ability to stop after only a couple of drinks. However, this decrease in drinking and craving is merely an artifact of the treatment. The naltrexone is blocking some of the effects from the first drink and from stimuli that have become conditioned to release endorphins....It is a beneficial but weak effect. The powerful effects from pharmacological extinction develop much more slowly and cannot cure you in a week or two. It took you a long time to reach your current craving and drinking levels and it will take at least three to four months to reverse the addiction"
It is my belief that if I force AF days before the endorphin hardwiring is dismantled, then I am not acting in my own best interest.
An interesting debate.
Wishing you well.
Ruth.

Thanks, Ruth. I believe you and I are on the same page.

Yes, I would consider my current state a false spring. This state is not the endgame: the endgame is extinction, personal transformation, and prophylactic maintenance with NAL. It's a pleasant false spring, though. At the moment I have no desire to go out and pick up some hooch. I need to though as I took the pill 90 minutes ago. I'm going to do everything by the book.

It's doubly encouraging in that I'm sure I could just drop the NAL now and maintain abstinence in the current state. I've done it before. However, I won't have caused extinction, and thus a minor deviation or lost weekend would force me to start this extinction process again. I think I will get off that merry-go-round.

Ciao.