WELCOME Black mountain,

Thanks for coming back and letting us know what can happen if you stop taking nal.

I hope that you hang out for a while and chat with us, for 2013 till now is a long time to be using nal plus you had a great honeymoon period.

I am sorry that you had to experience drinking without the nal, for every time one someone comes back and shares how they stopped taking it if reinforces the importances behind taking.

Jaba

This was a good list to bear so much about how different people reacted in the first days, weeks and months. It really does affirm to not sweat it during the first few months. I have had what I feel is great initial success. Thanks.

Yeah it is always interesting to hear stories from those who have been 'cured' and started drinking without Naltrexone again. I am a terribly curious type and a scientist by training and by nature and I cannot help to try and test what it would be like. I was thinking of waiting one full year on TSM before experimenting. I know I should not... I probably won't... But I am terribly curious. It's why I don't think I'll ever put myself on the cured list. In my mind it's a treatment, a damn good one, but not a cure.

Thanks man

I had many a go at tsm over the l few years along with the baclofen protocol. I used to post on my way out but the last while back its got very militant to the point where IMO its baclofen of nothing that goes. Theresa few posters on there who imo think the forum is their own so I give it a miss. Used to be great when on here was quite

Before my first go I was drinking about 70uk units and right off the bat I was in a honeymoon period for the whole duration.halfed over night and stayed that way. Thing was I was drinking 4 to 5 beer which I hate. I need to drink until I hit the sck and on tsm I couldn't get past a few beer which doesn't get you over as we well know.

Anyway I ran out that Xmas a fell right back and got way way worse. The baclofen totally fucked my head up at 270mg. Before I knew it 2014 was over and I was out of control.

I'm writing this coming off a binge and thinking about trying tsm again. Its abstinence I'm looking but at this stage damage limitation will do nicely!

Also got to add I'm just 3 months off of campral. The less said about that the better. A placebo if there ever was one. Now that it's off patent it will be good to see how much they now push it!

Sorry for the rant and taking over the thread!

Don't do it mate. If we all liked and could handle 2-3 even a 6er we wouldn't be on here looking a cure. I wish to **** I never lay eyes on it but I hate 2-3 beer I see absolutely no point in it but I never was a social drinker.

Ocean, I know you've mentioned wanting to experiment with drinking without the NAL before.

This is my experience. Not advice or guidance, just fact.

For the last year, on occasion, generally going out to dinner, I will have one or at most 2 drinks, WITHOUT TAKING NAL !!!

Why? ... Even at 12.5 it makes me sleepy, and the rest of the night is ruined unless I just want to go to sleep.

Do I get an an incredible buzz and want to keep drinking ? Lose control? Absolutely not.

Why?... Planning to have just one drink or two, and actually doing that is key. No drinking back to back, etc.

Many many behavior and perspective changes paid off.

Most of the time, especially at home with company or whatever, or daytime on the boat (we live on a lake, lot's O guests, ALL big drinkers), NAL taken.

Keep in mind, I only drink something once or twice a week. Inebriation is never the goal. Still enjoy the taste of alcohol, but hate the loss of control when drunk.

Cured ?... Don't know what that means. Free of abusing ethanol to excess mindlessly ? Yes

This is a true statement. It's not a "cure" because alcoholism is a behavior, not a disease like Ebola or Type 1 diabetes. It is a learned behavior. It is "operative," not passive.

You can get a disease without any learning taking place in your brain. You can be cured of a disease without learning taking place in your brain.

You can't become an alcoholic without learning taking place in your brain. Your brain has to LEARN the connection between the behavior and the reinforcement, and remember it. The key elements are behavior, reinforcement and memory.

The "rules" of reinforcement and behavioral learning are very well understood, both in the lab and in practical applications in the field like sports and animal training.

As a trainer, if I want to prevent extinction and create the strongest motivation and likelihood of a previously learned behavior re-occurring over a long term, I will use a random intermittent schedule of reinforcement. (Pulling the lever on a slot machine is the simplest example.)

Ocean, you are a scientist. So I'll give you the science. If you want to create the strongest resistance to extinction of a behavior, and the quickest recovery of it, then strongly reinforce it on a random, long interval schedule.

This thing that Sinclair noticed and named "alcohol deprivation syndrome?" That is simply a highly reinforced learned behavior that's been put on an intermittent schedule of reinforcement.

TSM is entirely based on the concept of extinction. Extinction is not a cure, you are so right. It is the extinction of learned behavior. Any learned behavior can be easily recovered if it becomes reinforcing again.

If you test drinking without naltrexone, then you aren't testing whether you are cured. You are simply finding out how long it takes your brain to recover that learned behavior, and at the same time renewing the process of resisting extinction.

It's truly unfortunate that Eskapa used the word "cure." That's so misleading, because we think of taking a pill as like taking an antibiotic to cure an infection, and it's gone for good.

No. This pill is only a means to create a context in which the extinction of a learned behavior can take place.

Extinction is also a misleading word. This kind of extinction is NOT forever.

Truffle,

Good to hear from you again. I do hope Mr. Truffle is doing okay with being abstinent, and I do hope his health is better.

Jaba

I beg to differ. Before TSM you could perhaps get an alcoholic to abstain, but their entire life would be a life of living on pins and needless, -and deprivation.

Not the case with TSM. Instead, normal life. You just have to take a pill.

Is a diabetic who takes their insulin and whatever else they have to do cured? That's probably the best example. Just like a diabetic, if you always take your meds, -you'll be okay. And if you decide not to drink at all, -you don't even have to take the meds.

I did not find him or his book misleading in the least.

Cure implies that drinking too much is a disease. Or is it a behavior issue ?

Accepting this problem as a changeable behavior is way more palatable than believing in being "diseased".

I think that's the AA model.