Ahoy op-me /Craig!

I had never heard of Valliant's study either but I found those results really shocking too. What is even more alarming is the number of reasonably well educated, well informed people who are NOT alcoholics/abusers, who have bought into the AA dogma. It is a standard "punishment" of DUI courts everywhere, and is essentially a religious organization that brainwashes members into a non-drinking state. (I refuse to dignify their method by calling it sobriety...these people are quite literally drunk/high on power and control.)

I am sorry to hear that your family has withdrawn their support. If it makes you feel any better, my mother is an RN and so spouts the usual pathetic 12 step "wisdom" every chance she gets and refuses to believe that there is anything better than the "American health care/mental health system." She honestly believes that America has the "best" healthcare in the world and that there is no reason for American healthcare providers to "withhold" a true cure for addiction. (Ummmm...maybe money might have something to do with that? Ya think? Nah....)

If I want any kind of relationship with my mother I have to listen to constant 12 step nonsense about over-eating, under-eating, abuse issues, and every other social ill that befalls the family. (Heaven forfend that any body just be plain wrong and need a little reality check.) My plan is to simply not tell anyone what I am doing, and if I succeed, then I might say something. Until then, I am not going to waste my breath.

Best wishes to you Craig - remember that your life is not subject to anyone else's vote. Keep "the faith" and believe in your own ability to make good decisions for yourself.

I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and input in my topic....all of you have made me laugh, cry and think more deeply about my own experience, about alcohol and drugs in general, and about those who suffer with this problem. I have found something to muse about with everyone's input and that's a very positive thing.

In defense of AA, since I feel I must say something positive about it, it IS a good thing that they have been able to help 5 -20 percent (depending on who you talk to) of those who suffer. Whether we, or more specifically I, agree with their philosophy or laugh hysterically over it, that percentage is a positive outcome. (Not that the end always justifies the means, but I'm "just sayin'...") For a good portion of the 20th century, it was the only game in town and the fact that some made good use of it, is a very admirable thing.

I have met some truly lovely people in AA, and it did help me at certain points in my life, to at least engage in a little self examination.
Just goes to show that some good can always be brought out of "bad".

The one good thing about AA is that people share their experiences and offer support. The rest is bullshit. It's kind of like psychotherapy: the specific methods of therapy vary widely but just being able to talk is therapeutic.

The more I research the roots of AA, the more outraged and alarmed I am that in 2010, our medical doctors, court system, etc. are channeling millions of us to a cultist religion when a medical solution to alcoholism exists. AA was founded by two members of THE OXFORD GROUP. Here is the wikipedia page. The notion that we are born sinners and can only be healed by confessing and turning our lives to God is straight out of the Oxford Group handbook. In other words, according to Bill Wilson himself, the 12 Steps came directly from this cultist sect. Am I the only one outraged that this is where we are directed when there is an effective, cheap medical solution available to cure alcoholism? ?

Oxford Group
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Oxford Movement.

The Oxford Group was a Christian movement that had a following in Europe and America in the 1920s and 30s. It was initiated by an American Lutheran pastor, Dr. Frank Buchman, who was of Swiss descent. In 1908 he claimed a conversion experience in a chapel in Keswick, England and later he initiated a movement called A First Century Christian Fellowship in 1921, and by 1931, this had grown into a movement which attracted thousands of adherents, many well-to-do, which became known as the Oxford Group.[1]
The group was unlike other forms of evangelism in that it targeted and directed its efforts to the "up and outers": the elites and wealthy of society. It made use of publicity regarding its prominent converts, and was caricatured as a "Salvation Army for snobs." Buchman's message did not challenge the status quo and thus aided the Group's popularity among the well-to-do.[2] Buchman made the cover of Time Magazine as "Cultist Frank Buchman: God is a Millionaire" in 1936.[3] For a U.S. headquarters, he built a multimillion-dollar establishment on Michigan's Mackinac Island, with room for 1,000 visitors. FromCaux to London's Berkeley Square to New York's Westchester County layouts, Buchman and his followers had the best. In response to criticism, Buchman had an answer: "Isn't God a millionaire?" he would ask.[4]

The Oxford Group achieved popularity for a time, but it was a minority voice in America and left little permanent mark on society. The Oxford Group movement was in reaction to the mainstream Christian churches, which were concerned with social systematic problems; their gospels emphasized liberal and social issues. The Oxford Group's focus was on personal concerns and placed the entire problem of human existence on personal sinfulness, asserting that individual sin was the key problem and the entire solution was in the individual's conviction, confession, and surrender to God. The Group revived an older 19th century approach in which the focus was on sin and conversion; it practiced a form of ethical and religious perfectionism that was reduced to a call for a renewed morality.[5]
Buchman, who had little intellectual interest or interest in theology, believed all change happens from the individual outward, and stressed simplicity. He summed up the Group's philosophy in a few sentences: all people are sinners , all sinners can be changed, confession is a prerequisite to change, the change can access god directly, miracles are again possible, the change must change others.[6]
By the 1930s the Group had fallen into public disfavor; the public associated it with revivalist Protestantism, which many mainstream Protestants and most Roman Catholics rejected. It began to be ridiculed in popular plays and books.[7] In 1938, a time of military re-armament, Buchman proclaimed a need for "moral and spiritual re-armament" and that phrase—shortened to Moral Re-Armament (MRA)—became the movement's name.

The Oxfords Group's influence can be found in Alcoholics Anonymous. Both Bill Wilson and Bob Smith, the two founders of Alcoholics Anonymous, were members of the Oxford Group. Though early AA sought to distance itself from the Oxford Groups, Wilson later acknowledged, "The early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done and working with others straight from the Oxford Group and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from nowhere else."[8]

I must differ on this. Of the 48 treatments analyzed in "What works? A summary of alcohol treatment research" in R. K. Hester & W.R. Miller (Eds.), Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches: Effective alternatives (3rd ed.), 2003, Allyn & Bacon, AA's effectiveness is below doing nothing (self-remission) and way below just exercise. One study hypothesized that the people who are successful in AA were most likely going to quit on their own (self remission, again). The fact that AA is below doing nothing shows that AA actually is an impediment to "sobriety".

If anyone wants to order the book cited above click here: Amazon and read the 2 comments left by readers, not the review (one of the commenters states something very interesting). Or buy the book, it's only $73.

Bob

As much as I realize A.A. has no real efficacy rate numerically, I DO know several people who needed to feel they belong to some sort of secret club and be kept accountable and guilt tripped into sobriety. but they think it's the only way. they are brainwashed, but hey, they are sober I might add that in making records, I've worked twice with artists who were in A.A. with years of sobriety (once with a whole band of AAers) I thought working with sober people would be easy, no ego, mature work, but these were the biggest babies I ever worked with. two singers who hated the sound of their own voice, a guitarist who walked out of the session pissed. people who wouldn't listen to mine or anybody else's input at all! just insecure MOFOS!

But AA was the first part of my journey to recovery. It failed me repeatedly, so I became so desperate that I searched for a better way. That's how I found TSM. so Thanks AA for sucking so badly! If it actually worked I would be talking to some loser on the phone right now about eating ice cream or letting go and "turning it over". PFFFT!!! I "turned it over" all the time. worked the steps to a T. I prayed for the desire to drink to be lifted constantly like my life depended on it. and guess what? NOTHING HAPPENED! Alcohol Deprivation Effect was still there. like I said before we've put a man on the moon since Bill W started his cult. one would think the recovery professionals would accept new ideas since then. everyone else has!

Hey, we're kind of a secret club - send 'em here! Although we're not very good at the guilt-tripping thing.

I started reading this thread but didn't finish. As a young alcoholic adult, I came to AA completely vulnerable, believing it was my only hope for survival. I had one "sponsor" who touched me, inappropriately, in a public bathroom. Fired him. I had an old man with 25 years sobriety try to buy my ass (I'm a straight male). He basically offered to take me in as his "boy" so that I would never have to worry about money (he is a millionaire). He still calls me and leaves voice mails "sending his love" and making sure I know "he's always there if I need him" about every other week, hoping at some point I'll be vulnerable enough to take him up on his offer.

Sorry for lack of a thoughtful contribution. These are just a couple of the experiences I've had in AA.

Hey GWAHA, I for one am appalled at Your expierience withAA..I am convinced that the only people who do well inAA are those narcicisstic types who like to take advantage of desperate people..Dude,its sick..Check out the debate we just had in Bob3d's progress thread..You are in the right place..Im not gonna start another rant..Just wanted to let you know you are not alone..AA did more damage to me than alcohol ever did..It makes me sick to think that courts sentence people there.And that parents send their teenage children there..All I can say is thank God there is a real alternative here..This is deffinately not AA..Hang in there....Goodman

Ok,...Yes the predator bastards do exist.

I believe that 100% because I saw it first hand and I was a straight male that was MARRIED.

There are bad F**ked people in AA. BUT.................... there are a few that are cool

Joe would agree,...as would other member folk. I just feel a need to SLIGHTLY SLIGHTLY SLIGHTLY (sorry herb...I'm oversensitive) say that maybe some of the non sorry ass MOFO's that were in the cult meant well. OK,..sadly Pyrata doesn't come round anymore.

My best, Jim